Guest Episode
March 24, 2023
Episode 94:
Trauma, PTSD & Yoga Therapy
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Anissa Hudak has always been intertwined with PTSD/Trauma and the military. For 3 years, Anissa volunteered at the Warrior Transition Battalion at Fort Riley, Kansas providing yoga therapy, meditation, and other holistic treatments to the soldiers, family members, and staff.
After seeing others struggle, and having her own personal struggles with trauma/PTSD, Anissa was inspired to create the Trauma Healing Yoga Therapy Program.
As a Yoga Therapist Anissa guides others in the use of effective, science based yoga therapy and other holistic techniques for the management/healing of symptoms relating to PTSD and trauma for people who want to control their PTSD - not allow it to control them.
Today, Anissa and I will discuss trauma and PTSD healing using yoga therapy.
0:00
well good morning Anissa thank you so much for joining true Hope cast I appreciate your time today how are you
0:06
what is going well very well thank you thanks for having me on how are you today
0:11
doing pretty good thank you I've got a coffee I'm open-minded I've done some breath work to you know really help my
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listening skills and my talking skills so I feel like we're gonna we're gonna have a good show cool awesome do it let's do it well why
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don't you just kick things off give us a little bit of an understanding about who you are and what it is that you do
0:31
well uh I am a yoga therapist and I work with folks who have PTSD
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trauma related issues and tbis traumatic brain injuries
0:44
very cool very specific how did you how did you get into that like I mean I've certainly heard of a yoga teacher yoga
0:50
practitioner yoga students but yoga therapist is new to me so maybe you could just describe how you got into
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that and you know what is a yoga therapist a bit more would be interesting well um I don't think anybody wakes up
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one day and says you know I want to do this you know um life is a journey and I
1:10
um I started taking teacher training classes for yoga and I took my very first one I had no
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aspirations of ever teaching and I was about I don't know halfway through like
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the last day and I realized that for me it wasn't teaching yoga yoga to
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me was this amazing gift and that I wasn't going out there to teach I was actually going to go and just share this
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gift and within I would say a month of finishing this
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class I had two job opportunities and I was like well maybe the universe is trying to tell me something
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and so I started actually teaching as a yoga instructor and I started then
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taking more and more classes and I took classes through yogafit which
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is a worldwide company they teach yoga trainers and they started teaching
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classes called Warriors and it was for PTSD active and retired military
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and at the time my husband was active duty we lived right outside of Fort
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Riley Kansas huge Community active duty retired
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military personnel and I said you know I should really like take these classes and bring them back to my community so I
2:30
could be of service and I was about I don't know halfway through like the first day and I
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realized that the person I needed to work on first was right here my own PTSD had kind of
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crawled into the nooks and crannies of my life and was kind of holding me back in some areas and so it became this journey of
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really self recovery and self-discovery and along the way I got to work with
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veterans active duty and and retired and um and then I just I kind of settled on
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working with women who were like me I am a two-time sexual assault rape Survivor
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and I just love working with women who were like me and so that's what I do and
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that's kind of how I got here it wasn't a plan it just kind of unfolded this way
3:26
well that's really cool I I have a question in regards to like I'm so I'm familiar with Yogo I do it sometimes and
3:34
but how would you go about creating a program or a routine
3:40
for somebody who's got PTSD using obviously the very vast um different types of Yoga that are out
3:47
there like how would you begin to like literally like write that down and how that would go would that be different for
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every individual or would you like have a program for people who have suffered from PTSD and just trying to figure out
3:59
how that how that looks well there's there's two different aspects of it the first one is physical
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um does this person have any physical um I don't want to say limitations but maybe challenges
4:11
that prevent them from doing maybe certain poses or how do I need to create
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um a way for them to access the pose you know we always want to make the pose fit
4:23
the body never the body fit the pose and so first there's the physical aspect
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of it and then there is the psychological aspect of it um there are certain poses that are very
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open and sometimes people with PTSD can't be
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that open that's just too much for them and so from a psychological standpoint
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you know what are they going to be able to do and then the third aspect is we know
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that there are certain muscle groups that hang on to more trauma and emotion than others and we really want to get
5:02
into those and and get them to exhaustion so how do we then fold that into the mix
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so yeah it's not like we're just gonna jump up there and do a bunch of Asana it's there is a lot of thought that goes
5:16
into this that's really interesting and just when you're talking about obviously there's many many different positions
5:23
within yoga very many different styles and yeah like just as you're talking about like getting there's so many
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vulnerable positions that you could get into that um would be very very difficult for for certain individuals
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who have gone through something potentially physical even emotional so that makes a total I didn't never made that connection before so I really
5:41
appreciate appreciate that because that's very very interesting and um I suppose it probably goes outside of yoga
5:48
you know like people like close their bodies up and that does so much to their like muscles and their tension and they
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do that day to day whether they're sitting whether they're walking whether they're like you know watching the TV their body's probably going to
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subconsciously attempt to protect them in these like in these manners so it's very interesting that you could probably
6:06
as I know so much experience see somebody who's coming to work with you and you could probably physically see
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how they're holding their body you can probably recognize like how much work or where to kind of begin that's such a
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fantastic fascinating idea so that's awesome I really appreciate I really appreciate you explaining that to me and
6:24
that you're that you're out there doing this because it seems to be something that's very very valuable and very
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important can we just take a step back for a second can you explain to me your
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your definition or your experience of what PTSD is I think most people could probably you know come up with a couple
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of sentences and like what that is but like because you've got this wonderful um yoga background and you're using your
6:46
experience to help people with their physical and emotional bodies working through something so severe as as PTSD
6:53
can you kind of maybe explain to people maybe what it is uh maybe like a standard definition and maybe kind of
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give you a take on it sure well I think that most people think
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that PTSD is a mental health issue
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and that's how the symptoms show up however
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PTSD starts in the body and this is
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so I'm going to get my science nerd hat on here um
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we have you know they say that we have all these different types of brains you know right brain left brain and um you
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know frontal brain you know the frontal lobe and you know all of this different stuff for our purposes I'm going to talk
7:42
about the upper echelon brain and the reptile brain Reptilian Brain so the upper echelon brain is where you
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do all of your higher thinking you know your math equations your grocery list
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this is also where the emotional regulation happens
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and then in your Reptilian Brain The Reptilian Brain takes care of stuff you don't think about so such as
8:09
blinking breathing notifying you to go to the bathroom this is also where your fight flight
8:16
freeze and fawn mechanism takes place
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so let's say we are in a traumatic experience and the body the brain immediately
8:29
shifts from the upper echelon brain to the fight flight freeze mechanism in The
8:35
Reptilian Brain now let me ask you something have you ever seen two dogs fight
8:43
as well I presume I I presume it's fighting okay and afterwards as they're walking
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away from one another what do you what have you seen them do
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um in my experience you know they might have a little look back at the other dog but very very quickly they you know kind
9:01
of get back to you know on a walk sniffing the floor and getting back to business
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have you ever noticed them shaking now I've seen that with deers though that's very very interesting yeah like
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that that that like kind of reconfiguration or you know yeah that's interesting so that shaking mechanism is
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what they do in order to reset their central nervous system and to go back up into their upper echelon brain which
9:26
makes them back into their you know lovable furry puppy or you know the wonderful deer that we see
9:32
Grazing In the grass right okay well I hate to burst everybody's
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bubble but we are animals and we have to Shake in order to reset
9:45
our central nervous systems to take us out of that Reptilian Brain and back up into the upper echel ombre
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now as humans we hate to see other people shaking and so what do we do oh come here let me hold you or you know
9:59
EMS might strap them to a board or whatever bad shaking mechanism is Paramount we
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have to do that shaking mechanism in order to reset our central nervous systems now what happens if we don't
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well then we're stuck in The Reptilian Brain we lack emotional con regulation and
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control and we we then set into PTSD which then
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shows up as depression anxiety hyper vigilance and all of the things that are
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associated with PTSD those are symptoms
10:38
interesting question in regards to that regulation and that so that shift from you know sympathetic to parasympathetic
10:44
that we see in dogs and we see in in Darren you know many other different animals is that like a subconscious
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thing that happens or is it or is that you know I mean obviously a dog brain in
10:55
our brain very very different but I'm just trying to think about the mechanism within us you know when we're you know in a very much a fight-or-flight
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situation and we need to like recalibrate do we need to think about doing the shaking or or is it supposed
11:07
to happen normally um and we just like lost that ability to recalibrate
11:13
yes that is exactly what happens it is nothing that you think about I mean most
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people are like oh my gosh I'm shaking you know um they don't even think that about doing so it's not anything that
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we're taught to do it is something that the body instinctively does on its own
11:32
that's super cool it just makes me think about how I can help my three-year-old recalibrate his temper tantrums and you
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know get back to normality because my initial reaction is to hold space for him and maybe hug him and bring him
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closer but it sounds like he needs to um have some space to check things out a little bit and he's quite smart so I
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might actually put some of those deer videos and explain what's going on there that's do you have any tips for kids
11:56
like in regards to that Benadryl [Laughter]
12:03
I have teenage boys I wish I could just give them Benadryl now no um
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you know every child is different like trauma I mean everyone's trauma is so individual maybe your child needs more
12:18
space maybe your child needs to be cuddled everybody is so different and
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it's really about finding what works for them in that moment and just remember
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we're always changing we're always evolving we're always growing and so what might work for your now
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three-year-old may not work for him in six months interesting yeah I think obviously
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taking you're taking consideration the the individual and the circumstances and
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I think it's important to be able to assist them to help them transition from those stressful moments into those more
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relaxed moments because you know we're obviously developing that part of the physical body
13:01
going through you know becoming a bigger kid and then becoming a teenager and then becoming an adult it's a very
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important part of the developmental process and if it's never really maybe cultivated or like worked on maybe we
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see issues in that regulation into adulthood exactly I would have to say as a parent
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that was one of the things that was most frustrating to me because once I figured out like I was like I finally got it
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down I know what they need it would change you know
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and so that was really frustrating for me as a parent and you know as a
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Survivor myself again because something was working for me in
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that moment and maybe for a year or a couple of months or whatever and then all of a sudden I felt like Jesus isn't
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working anymore well yeah because I'm a different person right now and so a lot of people say well I tried
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that and it didn't work for me okay that's okay try it again because you're
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a different person now you're at a different place in your recovery yeah that's very interesting to try
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those different technique techniques at different times because you're obviously our brain and our body are evolving all
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of the time so yeah that one thing might you might just not be ready for that particular technique right exactly they're like um
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there's PTSD commonly manifest in similar ways for different or is it
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wildly wildly different or like you know if you see somebody who's coming in and explaining about their PTSD and
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obviously look there there are certain symptoms as well and they're like commonalities there or is it just like
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all over the place over lace there's probably well over 70 of
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different symptoms if not more and again your trauma is as individual
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as your thumbprint and it's this huge umbrella of symptoms
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and so it can be really hard to actually diagnose PTSD because you have all of these off-the-wall things there's
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physical going on there's psychological going on um you know we we know that there is a
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lack of emotional regulation because we know that that is in the upper echelon brain and you don't really
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have access to it so that is probably one mainstay however everything else
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you know and it really takes somebody to look at the entire person
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you know why is my stomach upset um why do I have this happening why
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can't I hear my TV oh and I'm depressed and you know you have to look at all of
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the symptoms to really get a sense of what is happening to this person because again
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PTSD is not only going to show up as mental health issues but there are a ton
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of physical issues as well and so it really takes somebody looking
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at everything to say okay I see what's happening here
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as a friend or even a partner somebody who's not like trained in PTSD therapy
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management or whatever that might mean and we we have somebody who who has PTSD
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what can we do as um just as a friend or as a partner to support that individual
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because it can be it can be complicated and for example if I took to Google with
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that question I'd be going down a rabbit hole there'll be so many so many options that we might be but is that is there something that's
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a little bit more more simple and a little bit more um intuitive in regards to like how how I
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could potentially support that individual I'm not looking to like cure them with my cuddles but uh you know you
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know what I mean like how can I help support that individual to you know um
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to get them towards a better place perhaps well there's a couple of different
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things and I guess it's all dependent on how invested you are in the relationship
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um one of the things I would do is I would keep a notebook and I would you know okay Tuesday at 4
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45 this triggered you and this is how you reacted
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and keep a book okay um getting a therapist yourself
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someone who specializes in PTSD and saying okay you know
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um I'm living with this person I'm in you know engaged to this whatever and this is what's happening and I am trying
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to figure out you know one how to keep myself safe and how to help them
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um you know it really depends on how raw that person
17:53
is are they open to getting help are they ready to get help a lot of times they
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have to literally hit rock bottom and lose everything in their life and everyone
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in order to reach out and ask for help yeah that's such a huge part because you can
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it can be so raw and so new and just like you know and so triggering in
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very frequently just after the incident perhaps and it's you want to offer support and you want to recommend going
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to see somebody you would recommend this and that and trying your best to like fix or support whatever that might mean
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and it just might not just be the time for that individual exactly it might just really be about you making them a
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cup of coffee or a cup of tea and sitting with them and listening or sitting in with them and not talking
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just being with them maybe just holding their hand you know it really depends on
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where the person is at if they're a little farther along you know
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um it really depends are they are they hurting you are they physically hurting
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you well then you shouldn't stay I mean that's goes without saying
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are they verbally abusive are they emotionally abusive well that's because they don't have any emotional control
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right now and they're just lashing out again you getting a therapist will help
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you and then trying to get them to the help that they need yeah so in some cases it's about like
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making sure that you're safe and you're taken care of in that right environment because you know you obviously want to maybe support this loved one but if it's
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going to be you know it's going to be bad for your literal physical and mental health then you know certainly getting
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support and you're getting yourself out of the situation could be could be a potential solution going forward am I
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not seeing the right thing to do in in the in the in the moment but it sounds like it could be very beneficial and the
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first two points she made I thought were great in regards to just being there and being open and being supportive and you know and making
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a journal writing notes down that's certainly becoming part of the therapeutic process for that individual
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and I think that just that just that connectivity and just knowing that somebody really cares about you enough
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to do that and take the time and take the energy is like certainly part of the process and also becoming more educated
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with a therapist about like what you might be dealing with personally and what that person might be dealing with
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just to educate yourself a little bit further to support along the way you know taking the time to write those
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notes when that person is ready to go to a therapist you know you can you can
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give them that book um that's breadcrumbs for the therapist that is a huge jumping off point for
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them and so um that would be incredibly helpful you know if you have the presence of
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mind to do it how does movement support traumatic
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healing like how come that how can that process begin because I think that I I I would think I would I mean I think
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about the fact that how exercise completely changes my mental state and I really get the benefit from that so if I
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do have the ability to go out and like exercise and move my body it's going to change my whole physical and emotional being but if somebody
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um was talking about how they've got PTSD for whatever reason I would personally wouldn't necessarily and
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probably a lot of other people wouldn't necessarily think oh you know like moving your body in very deliberate ways and working with a yoga therapist could
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be very very beneficial for you so how can you explain to me a little bit more about how the actual movement
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of your body in very specific ways can really begin to help with that dramatic healing piece
21:40
well there's a couple of different ways yoga therapy specifically helps with healing PTSD
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the first thing is with PTSD you're either living in the future
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you have anxiety you're worried about everything that could possibly happen or you're living in the past and you're
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reliving this moment and you have depression well with yoga when you're on your mat
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you have to be present if you are not right there you're going to fall over
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and that makes you be present which is great for I think all of us
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because a lot of us aren't present a whole lot of the time however when you have PTSD it's you know infinitely worse
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so that's one of the things it makes you be present the other thing is we can actually mimic
22:33
that shaking mechanism to help reset the central nervous system
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by working certain muscles to exhaustion they shake and tremor have you ever been
22:44
to the gym and all of a sudden maybe your your thighs are quivering or your
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arms you you did arm day and and your arms are quivering yeah that is
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um a shaking mechanism that is helping to reset the central nervous system interesting
23:01
not so much arms but in other muscle groups and so we can do that and help
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people release some of the baggage that they're carrying and so they feel lighter they have more
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bandwidth and we are recalibrating That central nervous system
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do you think somebody has to go through like a significant event to have PTSD or do you think that there
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are a lot of people who aren't diagnosed with PTSD that might have like some sort of like low-grade PTSD if that makes
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sense does that make sense it makes sense um so what you're talking about is like functioning PTSD and like I'm a function
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I'm I'm a person with functionally functionally functioning PTSD there you go I probably
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am in my upper echelon brain 95 plus percent of the time and then there are
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times when I am not um but I'm high functioning
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um the other answer to your question yes it could be one dramatic experience
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but it also could be years worth of experiences so if you have maybe a child
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that's being molested by a parent or something and that happens over time
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um that can also lead to PTSD it's not just one experience it's years of this
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type of experience and do you think that that type of
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example like whether that you can inherit that PTSD
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can you inherit PTSD um you inherited yes um because it it
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changes um DNA and it can be passed from generation to
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generation I mean we're seeing that now when we've got Vietnam veterans
24:59
here in America they're you know they came home with PTSD a lot of them unfortunately and
25:08
pass that on to their kids yeah that's interesting because
25:15
you'd think that maybe that wouldn't be possible but it totally makes a lot of sense to me in regards to that because
25:21
that that individual is living with something so significant and you know as a child you know we
25:27
certainly inherit our inherit our genetics but we also inherit
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the behaviors that we're witnessed to and the and the energy I suppose that you could call it within the household
25:39
and especially from like you know a father figure for from a parental figure in general having that on a daily basis it would
25:46
certainly begin to change your brain in a particular way that would lead towards you know more having having more
25:52
of a PTSD experience even though you may not have directly experienced that traumatic event itself and we call that
25:59
secondary PTSD when you are experiencing PTSD from someone else's PTSD secondary
26:10
yeah that makes sense and that's uh that must be such a tricky thing to to deal
26:16
with because you'd assume oh no that person had the experience they've got the issue and then you know we've got these kids involved
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perhaps and you might not think that that's going to affect them but like is that like a is that is that secondary
26:27
PTSD but is that a big talking point of people talking more about that and and thinking
26:33
about the other individuals involved is anybody really talking about PTSD
26:39
well no yeah okay good point now that's a very very good point so
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yeah it's it's interesting because I just think that on some level whether you want to talk about like the severity
26:53
of the situation going from like one one extreme to the other um I think in some level like everyone's
26:59
experiencing something whether that's inherited from from parents it could be a global event it could be it could just
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be yeah it's it's just it's just a obviously a worldly big topic and it's unfortunate that we don't really like to
27:12
tackle those tough topics um because they you know they're complex and they're difficult and they the and
27:19
the healing process involves becoming quite um open and vulnerable is that a fair
27:25
comment I would say yeah interesting is there a particular difference between what you do the yoga
27:32
therapy and like in like Yoga Yoga like the what I would you know I don't want to call it traditional yoga because you
27:38
know I don't know if yoga therapy is the traditional yoga or not but is there a difference between like you know me going to a yoga studio and doing like a
27:44
you know an hour session and then obviously what you do what are the big differences there so if we look at yoga like a big pie
27:52
and we slice the pie in half on one half we have fitness-based yoga which is
27:58
wonderful and yummy and um you know there is healing that happens there
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um and you're looking at you know Ashtanga brick room co-ed naked hot yoga
28:09
I mean all of that kind of you know aerial yoga all that kind of stuff right
28:15
then on the other side you're looking at yoga therapy and we kind of Niche down and work with a particular group of
28:21
people and so you have yoga for cardiac rehab yoga for Parkinson's Ms cancer I
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happen to do PTSD and so we are specifically trained to work with that group of
28:38
people to really help them you know reach their goals
28:44
interesting so you're obviously using the the condition the individual because it's going to be expressed in so many
28:49
different ways and everyone's traumatic experience and that expression is going to be so wildly different and then using
28:55
this like really wonderful tool of yoga of moving the body in a very deliberate way and being very bringing
29:02
Consciousness back to the body because it's one of the best things I find about yoga it's like you know I'm sitting
29:07
there with my body and I can become conscious of like where I'm at I might have aches and pains and and stress and those things and it starts allowing me
29:14
to become more conscious and aware and internalizing my like physical body a lot more and you touched on it earlier
29:20
that we don't really do that as a culture at all you know we're not we don't really walk around most of the day
29:26
100 conscious of like what's going on because we have this big part of our brain that
29:31
does so much for us that we don't have to think about it so that doesn't necessarily work for us when we really
29:37
need to be focusing on our mind and our body at the same time because it's very very valuable messages that you get from
29:43
both of them what's the type of um research in science like supporting that type like
29:50
PTSD therapy for um sorry yoga therapy for PTSD yoga
29:55
therapy for cancer yoga Ferry for Parkinson's is there like is there a lot of like funding and research going on
30:01
into the the actual like what's happening in the brain and body and the results people are seeing from it
30:07
yes um so there's a governing body over us
30:12
um yoga therapist is called um iayt International Association of
30:18
yoga therapists you can go to their website iayt.com
30:24
and there's a couple of different things that are there one you can find someone in potentially your local area or
30:32
someone online who could help you with what your needs are but also too there is research there
30:39
blogs there we have um you know conferences yes there is
30:46
um research going on um yes yes yes yes to everything you said honestly yeah I think that um yeah
30:54
like meditation yoga and some of these what quite wonderful practices that are literally ancient
31:00
um are getting so much more um are getting a lot more highlighted within the medical community because
31:06
we're seeing such wonderful results we're seeing kind of new generations of practitioners that are maybe a little bit more like whole body whole mind
31:13
orientated so it's quite wonderful that's even an option and yeah I was going to ask you about you know if I
31:19
if I know somebody's got PTSD and I really believe that they were very much benefit by becoming more um focused and
31:26
conscious on their physical body and how that energy is manifesting for them there's a there's a lot of people online
31:32
if you don't have someone in your local area yes I'm completely online
31:37
oh that's amazing so that's that's very cool so that how does what is this what does the session look like what is the first introductory session look like
31:43
with you um well after we chat and you know we make sure that this is a good fit then
31:50
it's to the mats and it's um slow going at first because I don't want to totally
31:57
wipe somebody out um I you know I need to take in their their physical level and
32:03
um you know again their physical needs and emotional needs and it's about a
32:09
private session is an hour long and I take them through the entire
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um you know whatever it is that they need session do you ever do it with like
32:22
couples like one person who's experienced PTSD and the other person who wants to just be there is a supportive role and is like there
32:28
through in the process oh absolutely I wholeheartedly love that that's cool um
32:33
because yeah I mean having somebody there just to have the support that's wonderful
32:40
yeah I can only see that being as a positive thing to be able to you know reaching out to someone like
32:45
you as a therapist to you know ask for support you know you wanting to heal you're wanting to you know get better
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and having someone that you you know love and care about with you along the journey is just like wonderful and you
32:57
know I I don't know but they're like communities out there where you can you know you do this with I don't know like
33:03
10 15 20 different people like even online is that is that like is that other are there communities like that
33:09
out there not that I know of maybe there are I'm in the process of actually creating a
33:15
community for women who have been sexually assaulted and it'll be ready
33:21
between now and the end of the year and it's going to include
33:26
um live sessions recorded sessions you know some meditations obviously and then
33:33
an educational component because really understanding what's happening to your body is so incredibly important and then
33:40
the community I mean when you look at other self-help groups like AAA or n a
33:46
or even Weight Watchers the community aspect is so huge and I felt like there
33:53
wasn't a community for women who are like me and so I am hellbent bound to determined to create
33:59
one for us and you know but there are I know lots of communities for like women
34:04
with breast cancer or um you know Ms and Parkinson's so um
34:09
depending on what your need is you might find a community out there
34:15
well that's just amazing I'm so glad that you're putting something like that together it's going to help so many people and yeah maybe hopefully you get
34:22
you inspire other other practitioners to do that because I I totally agree in regards to the the community aspect and
34:29
you know doing things together and you know creating groups where people can support each other and go through it
34:35
alone because I think one of the biggest things when it comes to depression or PTSD or anxiety people like isolate you
34:41
know they go they like revert back into like a little hobbit hole and they don't
34:46
want to engage with the rest of the world and they get trapped in their own thoughts feelings and behaviors and that can become quite a quite a negative
34:53
thing I suppose but stepping out and working with other people who have been through something similar probably not
35:00
identical um but having that group compassion is surely a huge step
35:07
when it comes to you know taking further steps towards the the road to Healing exactly
35:13
awesome well that's very cool when that comes out where would people be able to go like what's your website do you have
35:20
social media where can people go to learn more about what you do and then make sure that they're aware that that course will be you know up and going
35:27
trauma healingyoga.com and I'm kind of like a bad Penny all over social media if you look up trauma
35:33
healing yoga you'll pretty much find me okay so um you know Instagram
35:39
Facebook I am not groovy I'm not on Tick Tock and I'm not on Snapchat I am not
35:46
that groovy um but you know all of the Mainstays Pinterest LinkedIn you can
35:51
find me traumahilingyoga.com I think it makes you very cool that you're not on those things so yeah there you go yeah
35:57
I'm not I don't understand those things either so you know that's great well that was awesome I really appreciate you
36:04
opening my eyes up to this whole different type of therapy that I didn't
36:09
know existed and explaining it more to me and I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us today so thank
36:15
you so much well thanks for having me on I appreciate it of course well I will make sure that all your your
36:21
website your social media and everything is connected in the show notes so people can get hold of you but that's awesome thank you so much thanks have a great
36:28
day beautiful yeah well that is it for this episode of True Hope cast the official podcast of true hope Canada
36:34
I'll make sure everything is in the show notes so you can get connected and leave us a review on iTunes and a little star
36:40
on um on Spotify but that's it for this week we'll see you next week foreign
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[Music]