Okay.

Good morning,

Michael.

Welcome to True Hope Cast.

Really appreciate your time today.

How are you doing?

What is going well?

Yeah,

it's my pleasure,

my friend.

I'm very excited to be here with you today.

I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Wonderful.

Well,

introduction,

why don't you just give us,

give the audience,

give myself a little bit of a background,

who you are and what it is that you do.

Yeah.

Today I'm a bestselling author,

award-winning speaker,

international top 10 podcast host,

blah,

blah,

blah,

blah,

blah.

But my,

my mission and my goal is very simple.

I'm just here to be of service and to ultimately

reach my goal of ending generational trauma in my

lifetime through education and information.

And so while I wear a lot of different hats and

I'm probably an entrepreneur first and foremost,

ultimately I'm purpose-driven and I'm here to just

show people what's possible.

Amazing.

Well,

what got you there?

Like you,

is this,

is this something you woke up and decided you

wanted to make?

Or has this come from a personal story?

Well,

you know,

it's,

it's my journey.

You know,

I think when you look at the people in the world

who most profoundly shape and change it,

generally speaking,

it's because of,

you know,

their own experiences.

And so I,

I had a traumatically awful,

awful childhood and it destroyed my life for a

very long time.

And then just through,

you can call it serendipity of the universe or

decisions and choices I made,

it led me down this path.

Incredible.

So let's talk about how,

you know,

you've,

so many people,

unfortunately,

experience different varieties of trauma as,

as they grow up.

And obviously that,

that,

that happens in adulthood as well.

But in your experience,

how aware are we as children when trauma is

happening to us?

Because we obviously have a very different brain

capacity when,

when we're children,

you know,

we literally have different waves of trauma.

I mean,

one example I've thrown out was when I was a

school kid,

I grew up with,

you know,

my mother and my rango,

she just kind of used to take me out into the

human environment,

you know,

in like,

you know,

like that represented like a,

a connection gone away from her.

She used to have this vlog Awesome.

Think that's important,

right?

If people don't know the story,

they're like,

'They're gonna be like whatever.

Um,

when I was four years old,

my mother who was a drug addict and alcoholic

actually cut off my right index finger.

That's baseline,

that's where this mission,

this journey starts for me.

My stepdad was super abusive; he'd kick the crap

out of my brothers,

and I'd put myself in the hospital multiple times.

We were homeless for four years,

getting bounced around.

I lived with like 30 different families.

And at 12 years old,

I started doing drugs.

By 13,

I was drinking,

and I got expelled from high school when I was

15.

You know,

growing up in a family,

I'm biracial,

so I'm black and white.

Um,

being raised at certain points by a very racist

ass white grandma,

like it goes on and on.

You add in bullying,

you add in bedwetting,

you add in malnourishment,

you add in just massive,

massive amounts of toxic stress.

And so growing up,

I there were were only small indications that it

wasn't normal,

right?

Because when everything that you've experienced is

that,

your brain kind of defaults and goes,

okay,

this is what the world is,

right?

How do you communicate?

You yell,

you scream,

you hit,

you fight,

you curse,

you hurt,

right?

And so what happens is like,

I'm looking at my life and being that young,

I don't really,

I know something's off,

right?

As most children do,

but it wasn't until actually that we were homeless

and I was getting bounced around place to place to

place.

I mean,

we live with families from the church.

We live with strangers,

with friends,

bands.

Like I never knew I was going to be a lot of

the time and I would see how other kids would

interact with their parents.

And it was really interesting because one time I

was at this house and we were all having dinner

and one of the kids like,

mouthed off to their dad and immediately I was

like,

oh man,

this kid's about to get fucked up,

right?

And that didn't happen.

And I was really shocked.

I was like,

what?

Because in my house,

if I did something like that,

my stepdad would slam my head into a wall.

And so,

like you grow up,

and you look at those experiences,

and if it weren't for certain elements of life,

I would not know that that was not the norm.

Right now,

as adults,

we look at that and we go,

there's no way that's possibly normal.

But as a child,

you're processing in real time.

You don't have the experiences of all of these

cognitive relationships with other people where you

can process them and look at them and say,

okay,

this makes sense,

and I can compartmentalize safety or danger,

and I can figure out how to navigate the world.

As a kid,

you're just figuring it out as you go.

And if you have parents like mine,

and which unfortunately,

a lot of children do,

and it's not even necessarily that level,

right?

I recognize,

obviously,

I have a very,

very dark past,

right?

It could be divorce.

It could be not getting taken care of and taken

to the doctor when you need it.

It could be,

you know,

a lot of families deal with having food money

issues and having issues with keeping the lights on

like all those things add up,

right?

People have issues,

especially right now,

where some of their parents are suicidal or they

lost a parent to suicide or they have family in

prison.

Right?

And that all adds up.

And so,

you know,

as I wish that we could be more cognizant of it,

as kids,

I just,

you just kind of are living in the space that

you're living in.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You're obviously,

your reality is bound by your everyday experiences.

And it's interesting that you're talking about you,

you know,

you witnessed another family going through,

going through something and you obviously had the

expectation of the end result and it was,

and it was different.

Is that,

would you say that was?

It was sort of an example of where your brain

started to think about there are alternative

situations and alternative reactions to,

let's say,

where you use the word mouthing off or talking

back to your,

to your,

to your father or your parent.

Was that the kind of the beginning of maybe

thinking that there was like an alternative out

there rather than this is my reality and this is,

this is it.

Yeah.

I mean,

that was definitely a starting point,

but it was also in things like movies,

like I would watch a movie and be like,

that's weird.

They're hugging.

Hugging.

You know what I mean?

And that's real.

Like I was really like,

whoa,

this is strange.

I don't understand this.

And,

and then there were just a lot of other

experiences growing up.

You know,

one of the things that was kind of a strange

aspect of my childhood was being a Boy Scout.

And so being in Boy Scouts,

it was weird because,

you know,

you,

you learn this aspect about community,

right?

That's a big part of what Boy Scouts is.

And so we would go be of service and help people.

And it was weird to do that.

Right.

And I mean,

there's a lot of different elements that opened up

my mind to it,

but you know,

I think that it took me a long time to process

because even until my kind of mid-late twenties,

I was still communicating in volatile ways,

not physically,

but mentally and emotionally.

A lot of yelling,

a lot of screaming,

stuff like that.

And then I,

that's about the time when,

when I started getting deep into doing the work,

I realized like,

wait a second,

that's not communication,

you know?

And so it's,

I think,

unfortunately,

one of the,

the aspects of any journey is they just take time.

Certainly.

What about your siblings in this environment?

You know,

were you kind of like there for each other or was

it kind of like,

I mean,

it sounds,

I mean,

it sounds like you had a really rough time,

man.

I'm really,

really sorry about that,

but you know,

you obviously you've come through it all and

you've,

you're now inspiring other people and,

you know,

creating something unbelievably positive about out of

that situation.

So that's just,

that's phenomenal.

Tell me about your siblings growing up.

Were they like,

yeah,

was it,

were you supporting each other just trying to get

through each minute of every day?

Or was there like even a considering the volatility

of the household?

Was there like a,

like a rivalry situation?

Like,

because it must have been very unorthodox.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

my brothers and I,

so I've got three younger brothers and an older

sister,

my,

my sister,

her father,

we all have different dads.

Her father had taken her and she's about 10 years

older than me.

Um,

my little brothers and I,

we all grew up in the same household,

but two things factor into this that are really

important,

right?

You have to think about this,

the same,

like kids growing up in the same household can

have two vastly different experiences,

right?

That's just the nature of it.

And so one of the things that I came to realize

was my,

my mom was a megalomaniac narcissist,

like to the fullest.

And she would actually pit my brothers and I

against each other.

And she would actually pit my brothers and I

against each other.

And she would actually pit my brothers and I

against each other.

And she would actually pit my brothers and I

against each other.

And she would actually pit my brothers and I

against each other for love,

for validation,

for even food sometimes.

Right.

And we would go to war.

I mean,

I broke this hand.

I have broken this hand on one of my brother's

faces like four times as a kid.

Right.

I mean that we only knew how to communicate in

violence.

That's it.

And so that's how we communicated.

And,

and as I look back,

like it,

it sucks,

man.

Like I look back on a lot of the things that we

did to each other and it's painful and it hurts,

but I'm always reminding myself that I'm not the

only one that's like,

we were only learning based off the foundation of

information that we had present at the time that

taught us that this is the way that you interact

with people.

Now,

obviously our,

like,

I will say this,

which I'm very grateful for.

Our relationships are very,

very,

very different.

We are more bonded.

We are closer.

We,

we pull each other up now,

but in childhood,

man,

it was war-like all the time.

And if we weren't fighting each other,

we were fighting kids in the street.

We were fighting our,

our parents,

like,

and,

and that's so commonplace for kids growing up in

environments like that.

I mean,

we had a stepdad who was hyper-abusive.

I mean,

dude,

the guy is six feet four,

250 pounds beating up little kids.

Like,

the dude was a freaking monster.

My mom,

massive drug addict,

massive alcoholic,

right?

And she was there.

There was probably not one day of my childhood

where I didn't get hit.

Right.

And,

and that's because they're in these stupors.

It's chaotic.

And so,

my brothers and I,

what do you think we do?

Well,

that's learned behavior.

Of course,

we're going to hit each other.

Of course,

we're going to fight.

Of course,

we're going to do really mean things to each

other.

And part of it,

and this is the twisted thing,

man.

Part of that is you look at it and go,

well,

that's how we love each other.

Why?

Because that's what we were showed love is.

And that's one of the really sad and devastating

parts of this journey is that for a lot of

people,

they never come to the realization and the

recognition that that is actually not love.

Remarkable.

Absolutely remarkable.

Tell me about your transition into,

into adulthood.

Like,

you know,

maybe like leaving the house,

leaving the home,

and you're kind of like,

you know,

you're going out there on your own a little bit.

How,

how was that transition from,

as you say,

that experience,

you're,

you know,

you're learning what love is via violence and,

and very,

very disconnected,

dysfunctional communication.

Like,

how was that?

Like,

going,

going forward when you,

you know,

started to become a man?

Yeah.

Well,

you know,

at,

at 12 years old,

my grandmother adopted me.

And that was because I'd been living in an

abandoned house by myself for six weeks.

Like I was only eating at school.

There's a big lot around the corner of our house,

you know,

retail store.

I was just popping in there and I was stealing

stuff to survive.

And my grandma caught wind of it somehow.

Because my mom had disappeared.

She had always,

she was always disappearing.

I was not a surprise if she'd just be gone.

And so she was gone and my grandma came and took

me.

And you know,

that,

that was,

you know,

it's a godsend in one sense.

Cause like I finally have a bit of security and

we have a place where I know I can show up every

single day,

but my grandma was super racist,

dude.

Like I had to deal with a lot of baggage and

trauma from that alone.

And so early on,

I'm,

I'm,

I'm leaving the house in the middle of the night.

I'm going and getting high.

Like I was never there.

I was always worrying,

but then I decided,

I'd rather be a homemaker,

you know,

when I was 14.

My,

I,

I remembered having this really interesting moment

where I was like,

if my mom stays in my life,

I am not going to be successful as like a

14-year-old.

I realized that.

And I went to my grandma and I said,

'I'm going to live.' And I mean this dude.

And this was where I was at because of how awful

it was.

I was like,

'I'm going to kill my mom and my stepdad.' Speaker

1 Speaker 2 took me to the city and we got a

restraining order put on my mom and my stepdad

because I knew like,

and that was my idea too.

And,

and you can watch in my grades suddenly,

dude,

I had freaking straight A's no bullshit.

And,

and that's because that,

that trauma,

that thing was out of my life.

Now for a couple of years,

I did really well.

My mom actually got sober when I was about 17 and

my grandma let her move into our house.

And now I understand something that I didn't

understand.

Then my mom moved back into the place of her

suffering,

right?

My grandma was not a saint,

not by any stretch of the imagination.

And so now my mom goes back to her self-soothing

behaviors.

And within a month,

she was drinking a gallon of vodka and popping

pills again.

And you can watch my grades go to straight F's.

And so I'm giving you context on,

on this for a reason,

because what happened was I ended up not graduating

high school and I have to go to this summer

school.

And the teacher comes up to me one day and

they're basically like,

look,

we're just going to give you the diploma.

We want you out of here.

We're done.

And,

and I was like,

okay,

cool.

So what do I,

what is life?

And immediately I was like,

I have to be out of this house right now.

I have to,

I cannot stay here anymore.

And I went and I got a job working at some crap

warehouse,

and,

and I was trying to figure out what to do.

And then I ended up realizing like,

okay,

this is a place where people go.

And I mean this genuinely,

where people go to watch their dreams die because

every single day I'd be in this warehouse,

putting microchips and motherboards all day by hand

like this for 12 hours a day.

I could just see the desperation in people's eyes,

man.

And I got fired.

Probably because I was stoned.

Right.

But I'm sitting in my car and I'm like,

all right,

dude,

time out.

What is happening right now?

What are you doing?

You're the biggest loser in the whole family.

You didn't graduate high school.

All of your friends stopped being your friends.

Your girlfriend's embarrassed of you.

Your family can't stop.

Like,

what are you doing?

And I was like,

okay,

I need to go and make a hundred thousand dollars

a year legally.

That became the goal.

By the time that I'm 21,

because I thought to myself,

that's the solution for this,

this homelessness,

this poverty,

this is abuse.

Now,

obviously in hindsight,

I realized money is not the solution for those

things.

And so I was just trying to get jobs and I ended

up landing a job at 18 and a half with a fast

food joint and a leadership role as a manager.

And I had a team of 52 people under me.

And I started learning how to run businesses.

And I made every,

every mistake an 18-year-old could make in that

kind of role.

But I was out on my own,

man.

I was living on my own.

I was out of that house.

And part of it,

which was really interesting is I ended up getting,

becoming roommates with a couple of guys who had

graduated college.

And so I'm like the baby,

like I'm 18.

These dudes are 25,

26 years old.

And I want nothing more than for them to like me,

right?

I want nothing more to them to be a part of it.

And I was a crazy person in my teens.

Like I was,

cause I just didn't understand it.

I was getting high and drunk every single day.

I was like parting my face off and like,

and these guys partied too.

And so we kind of had a party house and,

you know,

they brought me under their wing,

but it wasn't in this way that I think was

beneficial to my life.

And like,

it's not that I don't love these guys.

They know I do.

It was just like,

that's where they were.

Like,

and so I wanted to be that too.

And so I'm out on my own and,

in this window of basically not graduating high

school to the end of that summer,

when,

when I got this job at the fast food restaurant,

I had a conversation with,

with my mother after she attacked me in the middle

of the night,

because she was in this crazy drunken stupor.

And so the next day I look at her,

I go,

I'm never talking to you again.

You're out of my life.

I will,

until the day you die,

I will never speak to you.

And until the day she died,

dude,

I think I talked to her once and she died of an

overdose legless in some hotel in the middle of

nowhere,

America.

And I knew that if she stayed in my life,

that I would not be here talking to you right

now.

Not obviously this wasn't the plan,

but like I knew the impact of that relationship.

And so as I transitioned out of that life in that

home,

it was,

I'm going to focus,

I'm going to spend a lot of money.

I'm going to go and make a lot of it,

but dude,

I just partied it all away.

Yeah.

I mean,

it's incredible that you had that realization that

it was very,

very valuable to you.

If you were to have any type of future that your

mother needed to be out of your life when you,

you know,

when you were like 14 and you got that restraining

order,

like that's an incredibly brave and mature decision

to make and wonderful that you could make it

considering your circumstances.

You've had loads of people in your life that have

brought you down and caused you physical,

emotional pain.

You've had people in your life that have brought

you down and caused you physical,

emotional pain.

Is anybody like,

let's say up until you're like mid twenties,

when you,

you know,

you,

you were in,

we're in this like party house and,

uh,

and,

uh,

you were doing your thing with these guys.

Did anyone help you?

Did anyone like recognize that you were in need

and just like gave you a helping hand,

which made you could make you think that,

that not everyone out there is to,

is here to get you into stats,

stamp you down.

That's an amazing question.

So a couple of things come to mind.

One,

um,

when my girlfriend called me when I was 18 years

old,

I was at school or I was at home and she was at

school and she's like,

'Your name is not on the graduation list.

You're not graduating.'

And I was like,

'Oh,

fuck.' I was dude.

I just,

I knew immediately; I knew.

And I got in my car and I went to the school up

to the second floor,

corner of the building,

to Mr.

Bush's classroom,

who ironies of all ironies is a business teacher.

And I go up to him because he's the one who

ultimately; he's the only teacher in high school

that stood up to me.

I know that's a weird way to phrase it,

but it's true.

And so I go up to him and I go,

'How dare you fail me?' He goes,

'I didn't fail you.

You failed yourself.'

And then he told me the most important thing

literally to this day,

anyone has ever told me,

because if you want something in life,

you have to earn it.

You cannot get by on your charms and your good

looks.

And I had to go to summer school and that planted

this massive seed for me without that moment.

I never would have thought to myself,

'Go and make money.' Right.

I never would have had that.

And then as I'm like in this transition.

So I realized I had this conversation with a

friend and he went to high school with me and we

partied,

we did drugs,

we did all those things,

but he was starting to find success in his life.

He was working for an insurance company,

dude.

Josh O'

I didn't even know that was possible.

I didn't even know that was a thing.

And so that conversation shifted my whole life

trajectory,

because I realized,

here's how I've always thought: if somebody else

can do it,

I can do it too.

That's literally how I've always thought.

And so for the next year and a half,

I'm just putting in applications and running some

AMAs and getting declined all the time.

And all these jobs are telling me no.

And as I'm heading into my 21st birthday,

I land a job where I'm really not in the with a

fortune 10 company,

no high school diploma,

no college education.

And at 21 years old,

I made a hundred thousand dollars.

So I hit my goal.

I was focused on it.

And in that window of like getting and working at

that company,

one of my roommate's girlfriends had come up to my

bedroom one night and she knocked on the door.

She's like,

Hey,

can I talk to you about something?

I'm like,

yeah,

whatever.

And I'm sure I'm thinking like,

Oh,

we're about to go party or something.

And she whips out this fucking copy of Eckhart

Tolle's A New Earth.

And she,

she looks at me,

she goes,

I think this will help you.

You know,

I dealt that book,

Simon,

I threw it in the fucking trash can.

And,

and it's because,

you know,

when the,

when the student is ready,

the master will appear.

Right.

And so this,

all these like singular moments are starting to

build up,

but I'm not paying attention.

You know what I'm saying?

I'm really not paying attention.

And,

and,

and one of my guy friends in particular,

like he sat me down one day and he goes,

dude,

you should really think about like not being an

asshole.

And like,

but that was the conversation.

There was no structure to help me.

And I didn't think I was being an asshole by,

by being a party animal,

by cheating on my girlfriend,

by smoking two packs a day,

by drinking myself to sleep,

by endangering the people around me,

by doing stupid illegal shit,

even though I was,

financially safe,

right?

Nobody,

like there was no context.

And so it was just really until I was 26 years

old and I hit rock bottom,

nothing really changed.

You know what,

when you explain those examples of people looking

to help you out and then you,

you know,

you dismiss,

it makes me think that because of your childhood,

you,

you didn't,

you weren't,

you were unable to create the capacity to,

accept help.

So I didn't trust people.

There you go.

Trust.

Exactly.

You were,

you had no,

no context in regards to accepting help or

trusting.

So it's like,

what,

you know,

these,

this person wants to give me this book to,

to do what,

like,

that doesn't make sense.

You know,

like that literally,

like you build that up as a child,

right?

With you.

And I was insulted too.

There you go.

I was insulted,

right?

Because,

because the ego is so big as a protective

mechanism.

So I'm,

if you're like,

Hey man,

I want to sit down and talk to you.

I've been where you are right now.

And I just want to help you.

And your ego is so big because it has to keep

you safe,

dude.

It's like throwing a penny in a,

in a lake.

I ain't going to do nothing.

Yeah.

The walls come up and it's,

yeah,

it's exactly,

you're either going to attack or defend.

And no,

certainly I think that's a very remarkable situation

that a lot of people get in,

especially in those kind of like early years,

like you've,

you've been through the childhood,

you've,

you know,

you,

you're living on your own.

You're living on your own.

You're living on your own.

You're trying to do your own thing.

And the last thing you need is like a lecture

from a peer,

especially from a peer,

right?

Spot on.

Yeah.

Remarkable.

I've got a question for you because you have this

remarkable experience and perspective with,

with trauma and childhood trauma,

and you've come out of it in a very remarkable

way.

Um,

do you see things within your friends or other

adults or other people that you might meet?

Strangers or people,

you know,

do you see pieces of childhood trauma in their

behaviors?

Yeah.

I mean,

for sure.

You know,

the,

you have to think about this.

I would consider myself an expert in this field.

You know,

I'm,

I'm a subject matter expert,

whether I like it or not.

And,

and part of me being able to see that and look,

and I don't call attention to it in my peer group

and my friend's group,

because that is not my responsibility.

Unless somebody hires me to coach things,

I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that.

That is not my place,

right?

You want to go listen to the podcast or read my

books.

Great.

But it's not my place for me to be like,

Hey,

Simon,

by the way,

I saw this behavior pattern.

You might want to think about that thing that

happened to you when you're seven years old.

I would have no friends,

you know?

So,

I mean,

yes,

you see it.

Of course,

I see it in myself.

Still,

there are still actions and activities of my life

that I partake in where I have to pause and go,

'wait,

where did that come from?

Why did I do that thing?'

I mean,

I've got over 30 trauma-informed certifications.

I've had some of the greatest,

greatest minds and trauma on my podcast.

I've learned from them and got to ask hard

questions.

I've,

I've sat in countless hours of therapy,

group therapy,

men's group therapy,

Gestalt therapy,

CBT,

EMDR,

NLP,

ABC,

like name the acronym,

dude.

I've done it all,

right?

I've been to all the conferences.

I've read all the books.

I've listened to all the podcasts.

I've studied all of this stuff ad nauseum.

I literally put together.

I was curious one day.

I was like,

let me estimate how much I've actually invested

into trying to understand the impact of childhood

trauma and abuse.

And I came up,

I said,

I want to figure out how much time I've spent on

it and want to figure out how much money I've

spent on it.

And I spent over 250,000,

a quarter million dollars on myself,

on my personal development,

just me.

I'm not even counting the other stuff that I do.

Right.

And tens of thousands of hours.

And so you see it,

you,

you understand it.

Like it's a part of who I am.

And,

and it's all of us,

man.

Like nobody got out of childhood unscathed and

look,

it can be little stuff too.

And people always hear my story and they're like,

well,

I didn't have it that bad.

Okay.

That has nothing to do with you.

My life has nothing to do with your life.

We've never intersected before this moment.

Why are you worried about my shit?

What you need to understand is like even the very

small things and passing can create a framework

that cripples you.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say you're in third grade and you're coloring

a house and you make the sun purple and miss

Smith comes up to you and she puts her hand on

your shoulder.

She goes,

Simon,

the sun's not purple.

And she laughs.

And then all the kids laugh too.

Right.

But your brain goes,

Oh no.

You mean because I tapped into what I wanted and

my intuition and my truth,

I get laughed at.

I get embarrassed.

I get criticized.

This could possibly lead to me getting ostracized

from the community,

which then leads to danger.

The brain assesses that and goes,

wait,

okay.

So I should not be me or do the things that I

want to do because when I do,

there is pain.

And what happens is you stop being you and look,

let's be real as a kid that serves you for a

period of time,

create safety when you're eight,

12,

15,

17 years old.

But then guess what?

You're 24,

36,

52 years old.

And you have no idea how to be yourself.

Cause all you've ever done is be a chameleon.

All you've ever done is bend yourself to the world

for safety because your brain's autonomic response

to that stimulus is if I am me,

I am in danger.

Right.

And it's little dude,

Miss Smith,

never thought about that moment again.

Those other kids never thought about that moment

again,

but for you,

it has kept you from being great.

And the reason why is because it's just simply an

autonomic response because the brain has to distill

danger and compartmentalize it.

So your ass stays alive.

And there's obviously no way a child can recognize

that,

that's just what our reptilian brain is programmed

to do.

And we should be teaching kids that,

honestly,

because kids are very astute.

They will understand that,

but they don't get it.

Like,

like as a kid,

dude,

I would do anything to fit in.

I'll wear whatever clothes you wear.

I'll buy whatever backpack you buy.

I'll listen to the music you listen to.

I'll,

like the food you eat.

And literally kids would call me out on it all

the time,

all the time.

But I had no idea how to be myself because I

had,

my brain was protecting me by being a chameleon

because if,

if I ever had an opinion at home,

game over,

well,

our schools have never,

haven't really changed in regards to that.

You know,

obviously everyone's trying to fit in is absolutely

a good view.

It's nonsense.

And obviously we're doing a disservice to all these

kids in this environment.

By not,

uh,

not allowing them to have that creativity,

that individuality.

And it ends up,

you know,

we just have these like clicks of groups of

individuals and people carry that forever until they

don't.

Right.

Until they have a conversation like this and they

have a realization like this.

And they do what happened to me where at 27 years

old,

I realized I had no confidence for the first time

in my life.

I actually connected these dots.

This was over a decade ago.

And I realized,

'Oh my God,

I'm not going to be able to do this.' I'm not

going to be able to do this.

And I realized,

'Oh my God',

of course,

I don't know how to be me.

I've never been allowed to.

And then what happens is the really hard part

about this is you have to create yourself in real

time.

And there's a lot on the line and there's a lot

of pressure and people destroy themselves over

failures and mistakes.

And when in reality,

the,

the only way you're going to figure out who you

are is by trying things,

doing things,

figuring out in real time,

who you are.

And,

and if you can wrap your head around that and

reframe that into that.

Yeah.

Like that's what I,

that's what I get.

I've been learning over and over to this au fiche,

but I can go back to done that the last 2 years

and like easy to understand myself and just feel

myself.

Did you bring up your fundamental thinking?

That's the key.

Has that been something you've learned,

or a lesson you learned?

life until they realize that they don't have to.

Why are we unable to create the infrastructure in

most schools where we can develop individuality?

This is a loaded question.

I mean,

math is obviously a big thing,

but you know.

But I'll tell you,

I mean,

literally the simple context of it is,

well,

schools were built for the industrial system.

They want you to become an assembly line worker.

They do not want you to be a critical thinker.

They do not want you to be a free thinker.

They want you to get in line,

raise your hand,

do what the fuck they say,

and then ultimately go and work a job until the

day you die and hope that you lived a good life.

And the truth about that is,

like,

I do not have children,

but if or when I do,

they will never step foot inside of a public

school,

ever,

never.

Because it does.

When's the last time you used something in your

life in middle school?

Seriously.

No.

All the.

Yeah.

I have this conversation with my wife because my

two kids; I will be going to forest schools and

homeschooling.

For sure.

I love it.

That's what it should be.

Because,

look,

those schools,

and I'll point to this,

too.

They're not capable of handling kids like me.

They're not.

I was super violent.

I was super.

I was a kid who always had outbursts.

I never paid attention.

I was just staring at the I would literally stare

at the clock all day long,

man,

and be like,

please slow down.

Please slow down.

Please slow down.

Because the most the awful,

most worst part of my day every day was when I

had to go home.

It's terrifying.

And so,

you know,

these schools,

they don't prepare these children to be successful.

And you get out into life and you don't know how

to be yourself because you've been being programmed

forever.

And and the hard part about it is like then we

get into this weird conversation about being in the

matrix.

Right now.

I'm not saying we necessarily live in the matrix.

Literally.

Could we?

Maybe.

How would you know?

But it's like you look at life and you have to

understand some.

This is what I try to teach my clients day one

ago.

When you understand what I'm about to tell you,

your life will be different forever.

When you know that you are living life on your

terms is when you only do the things that you

want to do and you never do the things that you

don't want to do because you're trying to make

other people happy.

That's a very good point.

Very powerful statement.

And I'm sure there's is there a mixed response to

that question or do people really like,

you know,

sit back and yeah,

I think some some people will go,

oh,

my God,

this guy's an egomaniac psychopath.

He only ever thinks about himself.

And then I go,

you have to understand truth.

Bending yourself so that other people like you is

nonsense.

Period.

I concur.

Yeah.

The school piece is really tricky.

Like my eldest son,

he's three years old.

And he is.

He is wild in regards to like imagination and the

creativity,

the things that he comes up with.

And I'd like to think if he did go to public

went to a public school that he would have the

courage and strength and adversity to overcome,

you know,

maybe standing out and being is being an individual

himself.

But we obviously have this mechanism to be within

the community and to fit in and to not be an

outsider.

It would be very,

very rare for a three,

four,

five,

six.

Yeah.

I mean,

it's very,

very rare for a 15-year-old to even comprehend that

or have the ability to do so.

So not putting him in those situations is quite a

key part of my parenting.

And I've certainly had that in my mind for a long

period of time because,

yeah,

I see the I see the monstrous flaws within our

school system as well.

And as you say,

they couldn't handle you.

They don't have the experience or the resources,

especially in a public school system,

to even think about being able to deal with an

individual like you.

And there's obviously.

Many people out there that significantly suffer

because of,

you know,

a poor system and a poor structure that literally

hasn't changed in 100 years.

So,

yeah,

it's it's super,

super tricky to even think about putting putting my

child in that type of a situation.

Just thinking about you talking about earlier about,

you know,

we all we all have childhood.

No one comes out of childhood unscathed.

Something happens,

you know,

be it physical and psychological.

All these little psychological things.

That kind of mounts up.

It could be an uncle in your life that like,

you know,

doesn't,

you know,

that causes you issues that,

you know,

everybody has a little bit of something.

Does everybody break free of it,

do you think?

Does everyone come to the realization at some point

in their life?

Is it is it something that we're bound to be

dragged down by for forever or,

you know,

do you see a lot of people at some point they

they break free of it and they recognize that

those things that happen to them or those people

that are in their lives caused some of their

issues as an adult?

There is unfortunately an empirical truth to what

I'm about to say.

For some people,

they are going to make the decision to always be

the victim.

And you cannot help those people.

And those people's lives will never change.

And at the end of the day,

those people will die with regret because they have

not lived the life.

They have lived by making decisions every day that

just simply make their life different.

You know,

it's,

it's heartbreaking to me.

And I was on that path.

A hundred percent.

I was on that path.

I mean,

without rock bottom and destroying my life,

and you know,

I was at a point where I was 350 pounds,

smoking two packs a day,

drinking myself to sleep.

I was high from the moment I woke up to the

moment I went to bed; I was cheating on my

girlfriends.

My brother had told me not to talk to me.

My friends had all abandoned me.

And I was.

I was,

I was ostracized because of my choices,

put myself in that situation.

And in the next day I woke up,

man,

it was probably after the night of the worst night

of my life.

I wake up the next day and I'm like,

I'm laying in bed,

smoking a joint,

eating chocolate cake and like watching the CrossFit

games,

you know,

rock bottom.

The only way my life would have been worse is if

I would have killed somebody.

Right.

Seriously.

It was that bad.

And.

And,

and I picked myself up and I went and I looked

at myself in the bathroom mirror and I'll never

understand why I did this.

And I remember being eight years old and the water

company had come and turned our water off,

and dude,

they were always turning our water off,

turning off our electricity,

turning off our heat.

It was another Tuesday.

There's nothing new about this to me.

And this particular day I go in the backyard,

I grabbed this little blue bucket and I walk

across the street to our neighbor's house.

And for the first time in my life,

I stole water.

Right.

And I remember standing there.

I'm like,

when I'm a grownup,

this will not be my life,

but it was because guess what?

I was blaming everyone else for every other problem

in my entire life.

It's your fault.

My friend's fault.

The community's fault.

My teacher's fault.

Obama's fault.

Like it was,

it was everybody's fault.

It was never Michael's fault.

Right.

Never.

And what happened is in that moment,

I had to make a decision as I looked in that

mirror and I asked myself a question,

and this question literally shaped everything that I

have become in my life.

I said,

'What are you willing to do to have the life that

you want to have?' And the answer was no excuses,

just results.

And what that meant is I was going to have to do

the work.

I was going to have to show up.'

I have to quit smoking,

quit drinking,

eat healthy,

lose weight,

get on a diet,

blah,

and all the things,

go to therapy,

fix my relationships,

fix my friendships,

fix my life,

fix my finances.

And so I just kept going and going and going.

But the problem is like,

and I've coached thousands of people,

right?

Sometimes I have to remove people from my program

and I have to sit with them and tell them the

truth.

Your life's not going to change because you've

chosen not to change it and I cannot help you and

thus I don't want your money.

Here,

everything's back for you.

Good luck.

I hope you find what you need.

But the truth is,

everything that happens in our life at this point

is on us.

Now look,

let's be clear.

You're not culpable for any of the bad things that

ever happened to you.

It is not your fault.

And people have to own that and they have to come

to that realization.

But then they also,

and this is the dichotomy of it,

they have to realize that the choices and the

decisions that they are making right now have put

them in the situation that they are in,

and only they can get themselves out.

And you have every right to be a victim.

I will never take that away from anybody.

You have every right to blame the world for all

the bad things that happened to you,

but what are you going to do about it?

Because look,

here's the truth about it: and this was what

people don't want to hear.

There ain't no Disney moment.

Nobody's coming to save your ass.

Nobody even cares.

I'm sorry.

I hate to break it to you.

And that's not to be a dick.

I promise nobody cares.

Did you know that I even had those problems 15,

20,

30 years ago?

Would you even have cared?

Probably not.

You have your own life,

your own problems,

your own things that you have to solve.

And so people sit around and they're like,

'I read a book.

I went to a course.

I listened to a podcast.'

Nothing was different.

Yeah.

Cause you didn't do anything different.

You didn't make a different decision.

You didn't make a different choice.

Right?

I said,

whereas I have these people come in and 97% of

them,

their life's become different,

man.

I've coached people and I'm just watching them

transform in ways where I'm like,

I didn't even know that was possible.

I didn't even know that that was so beautiful.

That they could do that to leave unhealthy

relationships,

to rebuild partnerships,

to get paid what they're worth.

One of my clients works for a very big company

that everyone on planet earth knows.

And when they started,

they were making a minimum wage,

working some bullshit job.

And now they're an executive because they figured

out how to believe in themselves.

They learned the tools.

They executed the damn game plan.

Look,

man,

life is very simple.

You get the instruction manuals for a table,

right?

There are people who are going to read the

instruction manuals and put that table together the

right way because they execute.

And then there are the people where they put the

table together and they got that wobbly ass leg.

The drawer doesn't come out.

The top is crooked.

And you're like,

look,

you didn't execute the game plan.

This is your fault.

You did this.

And then they go,

well,

it's the manufacturer's fault.

I'm like,

no,

man,

they gave you all the things you needed.

You didn't do what you were supposed to do.

And until you get out of that fixed mindset,

until you shift and you decide that you are

deserving of having the life that you choose to

have and you're willing to execute against the game

plan,

nothing's going to be different.

Yeah,

that's really interesting.

That's a really interesting analogy with the table

there because I feel like if you were to give

that table to a five-year-old,

they wouldn't be able to read the manual.

They'd have to just throw stuff together and it

would end up just being a fun art project or

something.

They'd probably just draw all over it.

But they don't need the manual either.

No,

for sure.

A teenager would just try and do it as quickly as

they possibly could to get out of there.

And then maybe someone in their 30s or 40s who've

had some experience with those types of things

would read the manual and take the time and

execute.

Yeah,

it's just interesting how we come through different

stages in our lives and how our understanding

completely changes even from year to year.

And I find the fact that so many people love the

character that they've become because of the trauma

that they've experienced.

They end up being that person who got their heart

broken or the person who lost their job or

something and it becomes them.

And then that's their identity bound by these awful

external factors.

And yeah,

they're unable to ever really think differently.

Or feel differently.

Or behave differently because they're just so bound

up in this completely made-up personality.

And it's very,

very interesting that you obviously speak to your

coaching clients and provide them a very real

understanding of what's going on and what's holding

them back.

And I think,

was it your teacher,

your business teacher,

Mr.

Bush?

Yeah,

who gave you that quite insightful advice and you

said he didn't take any of your nonsense and he

kind of pushed back on you.

I think we need a lot more mentors like that

within society that recognizes that just because

you're a kid,

it doesn't mean you should get a free ride and

you don't get anything out of it unless you do

the work and earn it,

especially when you get older,

when you've got literally everyone else has got

their own problems.

You know,

you'd be very,

very rare that someone was going to give you a

helping hand to drag your ass along the way.

Yeah,

and we need that.

And,

you know,

I grew up playing sports,

too.

We never got it.

We never got anything for second place,

you know,

I'm saying you had to earn it.

And we live in a weird society that I think is

setting up kids for some massive failures,

man,

massive failures by giving them ribbons for third

place and trophies for 18th place.

And I'm like,

dude,

where is the resiliency?

How are you going to be able to handle failure?

And,

look,

a lot of those teachers and being a teacher is

fucking hard,

man.

It's hard.

Like,

I would never want that job ever.

Because.

Because,

look,

they're underfunded,

they're not paid enough.

They work too much that to buy their own supplies.

They got 58 kids in a classroom,

you know; they have to go and create these stupid

curriculums for standardized testing and fit kids

into boxes and puzzles all day.

It's dumb.

But but,

you know,

for every one of those teachers that pushes you

forward like that's that's amazing.

You know,

I had my wrestling coach,

Mr.

Hollingsworth,

who was an amazing teacher,

who one day just said something to me that was

impactful.

He was like,

'You don't belong.

You don't belong here.

You're not supposed to be in this environment.

So just get out of here.'

Right.

And that mattered.

And,

you know,

I want people to create change in their life.

Right.

And I want people to be successful because I

want...

I'm just starting.

You know,

I'm only been running this company for six years.

It's not even remotely close to what I want it to

be.

And it's like,

I even today I invest in mentors.

I invest in personal growth and development.

I have been mentored by some of the greatest minds

on planet Earth.

Literally.

But it all started.

You remember that book I told you about?

I threw it in the trash,

man.

I threw it in the trash.

And then I realized,

like,

wait a second.

Hold on.

What if what if there's something to this thing

about the information that other people can give

us?

You know,

because I know there are people who can't just

afford to come and coach with me.

But that's why we created the podcast.

That's why my books are free.

That's why my coaching programs that are on digital

are incredibly inexpensive.

Right.

But.

You know,

it always starts with where you're at and people

are like,

well,

I can't change my life.

No,

you can.

But you need to make a different decision today.

Right.

And what people don't understand is,

you know,

one different decision today compounded by a

different decision every single day for a year are

365 different decisions.

If you don't think your life will be different at

the end of a year because of three hundred and

sixty five decisions you have made that are

different than the decisions you have made that put

you where you are,

you're fucking crazy.

Right.

And the thing is,

though,

people are willing to just say this is just who I

am as dangerous.

And if you want to keep saying that,

your life will keep being the same and I'm not

even saying better.

I haven't even used that word one time today

because I don't know what that word means,

but I can measure different.

And that's the thing people need to hold on to

stop trying to make your life better,

start trying to make your life different and watch

it change.

Interesting.

I like that.

What does a what?

The coaching sessions look like with you,

Michael?

Mainly me screaming at you.

No,

I'm kidding.

No,

look,

it's it's it's me sitting down and helping people

create a foundational connection between causation

and correlation and mapping out a game plan to

change the trajectory of their life by doing

something different that they haven't thought of

that I've probably experienced in my life.

It's very simple.

I mean,

rocket science,

and you obviously keeping people accountable along

the way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

but look,

I teach people self-accountability.

That's step one.

Let's get clear about your values.

Let's get clear about your boundaries.

Let's get clear about your wants,

your needs,

your interests,

your personal motto,

your statement,

your mission,

what you want to do,

what you want to create,

how you want to show up in the world,

who you want to be,

and then let's do it.

That's it.

That's the game.

There ain't no magic trick to this.

You figured out you take a piece of paper,

you write some shit down and you execute against

that shit until it comes to fruition,

period.

And in that process,

there's a lot of shit.

There's shifts that have to happen.

Look,

we're analytical by nature,

right?

As human beings,

everybody's analytical.

We need to kind of figure out causation.

We need to figure out rhyme and reason.

And so one of the greatest things that happens

when we sit down in coaching sessions is people

will go through where they're at.

And it's not even about the path.

Like therapy is therapy.

This is not therapy.

I am not here to be your therapist.

And I tell my clients day one: look,

you have to understand,

dude,

I'm not for everybody.

I'm not; period because day one.

You do an interview with me to even come into

this world,

I say something that for most people,

it doesn't land well because they have an

expectation and I tell them this: I am not here

to be your friend,

I'm here to be your coach and that's truth because

I'm here to help you change your life.

I'm not here to be like,

'Oh,

I'm sorry you had such a bad day,' right?

It's not that you can't have a bad day.

Did I have fucking bad days all the time,

right?

But how do you create change in your life?

What do you need to do?

How do you execute?

How do you show up and force yourself into the

discomfort?

Now,

this is the tricky part: while simultaneously

measuring grace,

empathy,

compassion,

self-care,

love,

community,

right?

And so it's about figuring out how you melt all

that stuff together and create something beautiful.

And and there are people who they need that.

And I know that you're all like,

'You don't even know how to do it.' You're like,

'I'm just going to do it.' You're like,

'Oh,

I'm sorry,

little guy.

You had such a bad day.

Like,

dude,

the worst shit ever happened to me.' That is not

going to help me.

I quit on myself for 26 years.

I need a foot in my ass sometimes.

I also need the compassion and I need a framework

and I need a guide and I need the love,

but I need I need to be like,

'Motherfucker,

get your shit together.' And that's kind of the

thing,

man.

Like,

and,

and I'm so glad that there are so many different

people stepping into this arena.

And I don't think everyone should ever think that

everyone is for them.

And,

and ultimately,

you know,

every person that I coach it,

this is from my heart.

I didn't sign up to this,

to yell at people.

I chose to do this.

I decided to step under this path,

not to be a dick,

not to be an asshole,

but to simply say,

wait a second,

are you really,

are you really living your life?

There's a,

there's a dichotomy to this thing.

There's a,

there's a actually juxtaposition is a better word,

a beautiful juxtaposition where you have to ask

yourself an incredibly hard question.

And a lot of times it's hard to answer that

question because forest for the trees,

you can't really see your life because you're in

it every day.

And then I come in and I go,

wait a second,

let's assess this.

And it comes down to this most often people

conflate this and they go,

I'm taking care of myself.

Right.

And I go,

okay,

cool.

Are you actually taking care of yourself?

Is that true?

Or are you taking it easy on yourself?

Because those are not the same things.

That's very,

very interesting.

Appreciate you sharing that with me,

buddy.

What does,

what does your journey look like in the next five,

10 years?

You said that your businesses know is not where

you,

you know,

it's nowhere near what you want it to be,

where you dream it to be.

Like,

what does it look like going?

Yeah.

Well,

five,

two years is too short of a timeline.

My mission is very simple.

Very simple.

I said at the beginning,

I want to end generational trauma in my lifetime.

That is the mission.

That is a life mission.

That is an everyday show up,

do the work,

create the content,

educate the people,

speak on the podcast,

write the books,

speak on the stages,

travel the world mission.

I don't care about five years from now.

It doesn't matter to me.

The only thing I care about is when I'm on my

deathbed,

did I accomplish this goal?

That's it.

And look,

and the truth is like,

dude,

I realize the truth of it.

It's improbable.

It's probably freaking impossible.

Hell,

it might even be irresponsible,

but that ain't going to stop me.

Well,

you know what?

I'm glad that you're out there,

buddy.

I'm glad that you're out there doing this thing.

And I,

I,

I don't think it's impossible.

I don't think it's improbable.

I think,

you're going to do it.

I don't think you're going to have any problems

with the,

with the way you're going.

Yeah.

It's about,

you know,

you got to zero in,

you got to move forward,

but all of that starts with me first.

Right.

And I'll share a really important truth.

If I wake up tomorrow and I don't want to do

this anymore,

I'm out.

I'm out because let me tell you this.

I've built multiple five,

six,

seven,

eight-figure businesses over my life.

This is the hardest I've ever done,

you know?

And so it wears on you.

It tears on you.

It's emotionally,

mentally,

physically exhausting at times.

Right.

But I know,

but every day,

every day I get three,

five,

10 messages from people who are like,

man,

that thing you said changed my life.

That program you made saved me,

right.

Whatever that is.

And so there's this really beautiful,

like that,

that's what fires me back up on the days where

I'm like,

'I don't want to do this anymore.' I go.

Yeah.

But what,

what did my brothers need?

What did I need when I was a kid?

I needed parents who had a healed life.

And so if I can save a kid from going through

the experience that I had,

I'm going to show up for it every single day,

but I also have the ability to change my mind.

And that's a thing.

I don't want to be dogmatic about this,

right?

You know,

it's the same way people are in relationships.

They shouldn't be in them.

You're like,

'Why are you still in this?' Because I'm married.

And you know,

it's just like,

I don't even know what excuse people like; I want

to travel the world,

but I have a lease.

So,

like you look,

you have,

that is what I'm trying to tell you,

man.

Like everything about this life is showing up as

you choose to show up.

And I choose to show up like this every single

day until the moment that maybe that shifts.

Will it?

I don't know,

but I know that today I'm here and this is what

we're doing.

Have you got a couple of favorite books you could

share with us?

Dude,

I've read like 500 books.

Books,

but I'll give you the tops.

I won't even include mine because I think about

number one would be Radical Acceptance by Tara

Brach.

I make every client I coach read that book.

It's a must.

You literally have to read that book or I will

not coach you.

Because it's about getting to that place where you

can just acknowledge who you are and not judge and

not shame and not guilt yourself.

And it's deep.

I love it.

Everybody always goes to The Body Keeps the Score.

It's a beautiful book.

I highly recommend it.

The 10X Rule by Grant Cardone really changed my

life.

Really powerful book.

Obviously Goggins can't hurt me.

I mean,

he's the only dude I know where I'm like,

oh,

his life's like my life.

Jocko Willink's Extreme Ownership.

I can keep going.

Hold on.

I'm going to give you a couple more.

I love,

love,

love Jocko Willink's Extreme Ownership.

I love that book.

Man,

it's a strong list.

Dopamine Nation by Anna Lamke.

Unbelievable book.

Unbelievable.

But yeah,

I'll stop there because I could literally keep

going.

I got a whole book list on the website,

but yeah.

Well,

that's where we're going to get people to go to.

So can you let us know?

Can you tell us where people can go to connect

with you,

please,

Michael?

Yeah,

man.

I'm everywhere on social at Michael Unbroken.

But if you just go to ThinkUnbrokenPodcast.com or

search Think Unbroken on YouTube or Spotify or

iTunes or whatever,

everything that I teach at Think Unbroken is for

free on that podcast.

Literally everything.

All the books are free.

All the courses are free.

All the everything is for free on that podcast.

Well,

amazing.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

And I'm sure when this,

when this goes out,

the audience is going to really have a really

wonderful time listening to what you say.

And I think a lot of what you've said has been

very,

very impactful.

And I'm going to make sure people head over to

your website,

to your podcast,

to your social to get connected up.

So,

Michael,

honestly,

thank you so much for today.

Hey,

man,

it's my pleasure.

I'm so happy to be able to have been here and

serve.

And thank you for allowing me the space because

that makes you a part of my mission and it makes

you a brother.

So thank you.

Thank you very much.

That's awesome.

Well,

that is it for today on True Heart.

I hope cast.

Thank you so much for listening,

everybody.

If you're listening on iTunes,

don't forget to leave a review.

Very,

very helpful.

But that's it for today.

We'll see you next week.