0:00

Yeah. One of the things that I love to do, and I've already done it once on this podcast, is talk about our caveman ancestors. Because even though it has

0:06

been such a long period of time since then, our brains, while they are the

0:12

most incredibly complex device in the entire universe, and as you mentioned, we still don't know everything that

0:18

there is to know about them, they're still wired in a way that sun is our

0:24

strongest predictor for our circadian rhythm. And so just to kind of break that down a

0:30

little bit, we all have a biological timekeeper, if you will, and that lives

0:36

in the brain. Its formal name is our super kaismatic nucleus. Very fancy. And

0:41

it is connected to the pineal gland. And the pineal gland is what will release

0:46

melatonin. Everybody's heard of melatonin. That's obviously very trendy right now, too. But you may or may not

0:52

know that your body naturally makes that. It doesn't only come from a store. Your body naturally makes melatonin. And

0:59

the way that we can capitalize on this is by going all the way back to caveman ancestor days and really being in tune

1:06

with the sun and the the darkness.

1:20

Hello all and welcome back to True Hopecast, the official podcast of True Hope Canada, where we explore the

1:26

powerful connections between mind, body, and nutrition in the pursuit of lasting mental wellness. I am your host, Simon

1:33

Brazier, and today's episode is not just insightful, it's essential. What happens

1:38

to the human mind when it's exposed to the darkest parts of reality, and how do you sleep after that? Our guest today is

1:45

Dr. Leah Kaylor, a clinical and prescribing psychologist whose work with the FBI puts her at the very front lines

1:52

of trauma and resilience. From decoding the science of nightmares and insomnia to treating agents who have seen the

1:59

unthinkable, Dr. Kayla understands the real cost of sleepless nights and unprocessed trauma. She is certified in

2:07

ENDR and brain spotting, has trained with the VA, canceled first responders, and led psychological debriefings for

2:13

some of the most high-profile incidences in FBI history. Now, she is bringing those tools along with the latest in

2:20

sleep science to you. If you are a high performer, a first responder, a veteran,

2:25

or someone just struggling with burnout and insomnia, this episode is a must listen. Dr. Kayla doesn't just bring

2:32

clinical expertise. She brings compassion, clarity, and practical solutions. So, buckle up. We're about to

2:37

explore the intersection of trauma, sleep, and recovery with one of the most unique qualified experts on the planet.

2:44

This episode is titled Sleep, Trauma, and the FBI: What You Were Never Taught. Enjoy the show. Okay. Hi, Dr. Leah.

2:52

Welcome to True Hope Cast. How are you? What is going well? Thanks for having me. I'm doing very

2:59

well. Uh, and what's going well today is I'm working on like the last edits of my book, which is so exciting to be at this

3:06

final stage. How long have you been uh when was the the beginning of it? How long you been going for?

3:11

It started basically on November 1st of 2024. So, not a full year yet, but we're

3:17

getting there. So, it's very exciting. We're in the final stages. The cover design is coming along really nicely.

3:23

So, uh, it's supposed to release on October 1st, so I am very eagerly awaiting that date.

3:29

Well, amazing. I think writing a book is probably one of the hardest things you can do these days. So, that's amazing. And we'll certainly talk about it and

3:35

you can give us a little of a sneak preview and we'll make sure everyone can get connected to to pick up a copy of

3:40

it. But just as an just as an introduction to kick things off, if you don't mind, can you just tell us a little bit about who

3:47

you are and what it is that you do, please? Sure. My name is Dr. Leah Kaylor. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and a

3:53

prescribing psychologist. I have been with the FBI for over 5 years now.

3:58

Before that, I was at the Memphis VA Medical Center and my specialties are trauma and sleep. Uh it all started at

4:06

the Memphis VA Medical Center where I was doing a rotation on behavioral sleep. really didn't know anything about

4:12

it before then and it kind of just changed my life being there, seeing how many people struggle with sleep, but

4:18

also having the opportunity to help people with sleep hygiene, with nightmares, with being adherent to their

4:24

CPAP. And when I got to the bureau, it was also just noticing how many people

4:30

struggled with sleep, how many people, one of the things I like to say is you don't know what you don't know. And so

4:35

finding out that there's a lot of people who don't know a whole lot about sleep and why it's so important and why we should place value on it and and a lot

4:43

of value. And so I have been uh my title is just a psychologist, but I've worked

4:49

my way up to being the FBI sleep expert and I treat trauma and sleep. And so that is what I do. And a lot of folks

4:56

whenever I've been doing more and more podcasts to promote the book ask me the question and I should clarify this is

5:02

that the people who I treat are our agents, our professional staff, our joint task force officers. So anybody

5:08

involved in the FBI or FBI employees. Um just yesterday I got a question about if

5:13

I treat criminals and so that is not my role within the FBI. I am an in-house

5:19

resource for our own employees. Amazing. Well, that's very very cool. And there's so many questions I've got

5:25

that come up. Even when you just say FBI and sleep specialists, there's some really it's it's cool that you clarify

5:31

because I guess you could go with many different avenues around who you would actually work with when it comes to your

5:37

sleep expertise. Yeah. I I didn't realize that, you know, I guess whenever people watch all kinds

5:43

of TV and movies that they think that maybe it would be criminals. And so for me, it doesn't even cross my mind until

5:49

I get outright questions like that yesterday and I was like, "Oh, actually, I should probably start telling people and clarifying." But one thing I do want

5:55

to say is that um everything I'm going to say here today are my own thoughts, feelings, beliefs, opinions. The FBI is

6:01

not sponsoring or endorsing this podcast in any way. It's very true. Excellent. Um well, the

6:08

just the uh topic for today is going to be sleep, trauma, and the FBI. What you were never taught.

6:15

And I'd love us to jump into kind of trauma to begin with. It's it's a topic we've been speaking about a lot on the

6:20

show. Some amazing trauma experts and more and more um practitioners are kind

6:26

of coming out and specializing in this area and educating people. And I think it provides a lot more I think clarity

6:34

and understanding to what people are going through when they've got experts that are able to kind of explain what's actually physically happening in the

6:40

brain when when trauma occurs. And I think education and understanding is the primary point of where you're able to

6:46

actually understand and make those changes necessary to recover. So, as

6:52

you've mentioned, you've worked with FBI agents and I think first responders and veterans as well, just from looking at

6:58

the website and um basically people exposed to, let's just say, some of the

7:03

worst types of human behavior. And I wonder what you've learned about how

7:09

trauma actually rewires the brain and how does that show up in everyday life

7:14

for the rest of us. I guess I think one thing that I I want to say

7:19

here when I'm answering this question is, you know, we we think about like if

7:24

you're in the mental health world, like there's big tea trauma, there's little tea trauma. Like at the end of the day, I think that one thing that's very

7:31

important and something that I'll often say whenever I'm doing lectures is that trauma is whatever it means to you

7:38

because every single person is going to be different. And I'll say, you know, say I'm uh in an auditorium, I have a

7:44

whole bunch of people there for a lecture and I say like if something were to happen right here, right now, and we are all experiencing it, there will be

7:51

some people who it's just another day for them and there will be some people who this is the worst day of their life.

7:56

And I think it's really important to realize that it is so incredibly individualized. How people are impacted

8:01

by trauma and then also how people bounce back and recover from trauma I

8:07

think is very unique and individualized. Um there's, you know, I think I got a I

8:12

got a question about this earlier this week and it was about should we jump in and and treat people immediately? And

8:18

here's the thing is that the human brain and body like know how to heal itself. And that's why there are studies out

8:25

there to show that people will be exposed to some type of trauma. And if you give them a certain amount of time,

8:33

why do why doesn't every single person who has experienced some type of trauma then go on to develop post-traumatic

8:39

stress disorder? And the bottom line is that we as humans can be very resilient and very adaptive. And so I think it's

8:46

just important to throw that out there first and foremost uh when we're talking about this because whether you're former

8:54

well whether you're a first responder or military whatever you are as you're listening that doesn't mean that you

9:01

automatically take the cake either. Like there are lots of people who are also just regular civilians too who have been

9:07

through some really tough things in their life. And I think that sometimes we get caught up in this contest of like

9:12

whose trauma is worse or perhaps I don't deserve treatment because I'm my trauma

9:17

isn't as bad as someone else. And that's something that I feel like I run into a lot. And what I just want to say is like

9:22

everybody deserves services. Everybody deserves to feel better and to be able to heal. And we do have those resources.

9:28

Wonderful. Yeah. I think it's uh just from what you said there, it's really important to understand and to have a

9:35

lot of empathy for other people because we don't really know what's going on for people. We don't really know their history

9:40

and as you say, people will experience a situation very

9:46

very differently just depending on you know their their history with with trauma I guess and also just their

9:54

makeup and like who they are. So I think it's just an important important part to take a step back and recognize that

10:00

everyone's kind of unique. Everyone's different. Brain chemistry is a horri horribly it's a very complex thing that

10:06

we kind of barely understand. And to try and like put people in boxes

10:12

is not really going to be a beneficial way of kind of understanding understanding it.

10:19

Yeah. So I just wanted to put that out there first and foremost because I think people get really caught up in that.

10:25

Absolutely. Yeah. Somebody who's experienced trauma from from a young age and continues to experience it and somebody who's not experienced anything

10:30

as you say like you the worst thing that's happened to you is the worst thing that's happened to you, right? And that's going to be

10:36

different for everybody. And yeah, it's just I think it's an important place to to to begin with for people to kind of

10:43

understand that. And I'm guessing that you've probably conducted, you know,

10:48

psychological debriefings following like kind of intense incidents within the FBI. And I wondered like is there one

10:54

particular story um obviously you can't go into probably too much detail but like one story that's changed the way

11:00

that you maybe view resilience of like the human spirit and within trauma in

11:06

that type of recovery state. I don't know if there's any particular stories that I can share without giving

11:12

away any client information or without giving any away any like case

11:17

information. But I would say at the end of the day though I have worked with folks whether it's bureau or whether

11:23

it's veterans in military who have experienced some things that humans

11:29

absolutely should not ever experience in their life and yet their resilience astounds me and just blows me away. And

11:36

so it it absolutely does exist. So I think that without being able to give

11:41

you a very specific story, without giving anything away, I absolutely have seen some incredible human resilience.

11:48

Have you witnessed any like common characteristics within those examples of people who are able to do as you say

11:56

recover from things that you you wouldn't expect people to recover from? I would say probably persistence, having

12:03

a relatively positive outlook on things. I think that those are very helpful because whenever it comes to trauma

12:09

treatment, there's also a huge attrition rate. And when I say attrition rate, I

12:15

mean like a dropout rate of people probably know that they need services. They know that they want to help, but at

12:21

the same time, working through a trauma and knowing that you're going to go to an appointment and probably talk about

12:27

or work through something that was very traumatic and maybe the worst thing of your life, it tends to bring very high

12:35

dropout rates. So, the people who are persistent, who keep coming back, the people who have some type of support

12:40

system, whether that's family, friends, like some type of community, I think that's really important. And then those

12:46

who can continue to reframe and whenever I say that is the way in which we look

12:51

at our life and the things that happened to us. And if we're always looking at things negatively and that would make

12:56

sense that we do because we are wired that way, right? Like if we think all the way back to our caveman ancestors,

13:02

that's what we are wired for. Because those who are wired to look for the

13:08

negative were the ones who safely made it to pass on their genes

13:13

and to continue to procreate. And so those ones who didn't have that negative bias of constantly looking for danger,

13:21

they maybe weren't so lucky. And so it's reasonable to think that we should be

13:27

wired for the negative. However, the people who I think are more successful and do better in treatment are the ones

13:33

who know how to reframe things and know how to look for the positive and try and find kind of like a silver lining in

13:38

situations. So, I would say that those are some of the common characteristics that I think stand out for me, but I

13:44

definitely don't think that that is an exhaustive list. Yeah, I'm sure people who are like know

13:50

work with who who are active in the field in the FBI and even just police officers and first responders, I feel

13:56

like a lot of them have worked with people and recommended that somebody seek help or seek support

14:02

in incidences and then when it actually happens to them, they've got the experience of like, okay, if if I was if

14:08

I wasn't me, I'd be recommending some to go and speak to somebody. Um, but we do

14:14

know like we have in 2025 an unbelievable amount of varied distractions that people can select from

14:22

to just block out and even just straight up blunt the emotions and thoughts and

14:30

feelings and behaviors that come up when you relive the incidences of that in a

14:35

kind of historical event. So I guess I I think that if those individuals working

14:42

as like first responders, they would have a little bit more of an understanding of like the these are the options that you actually have and the

14:49

some amazing success with it. And you say the persistence of being able to go there and you know not just like going

14:55

in for 5 minutes and and exiting but like that that consistency and kind of going through the the process or the

15:01

formula trusting in the process must be uh yeah the common thread that you would see with people who actually make that

15:07

recovery rather than we see lots of people that use food, they use they use drugs, they use all sorts of Yeah. They

15:13

use all sorts of things to just completely numb themselves to actually dealing with the process. So yeah, that's that that's

15:20

an interesting point. I love that. I think there are a lot of people who even though they can tell others what it

15:27

is that they need, and a lot of times we we will all fall into this category at some point in our lives, but I think

15:32

that there are people who can do a really good job of telling other people what it is that they need, but sometimes we have a difficult time being

15:38

self-reflective and following through on what it is that we need. And that is something that I see is that

15:48

people by the time they get to me, it has been quite a while. There's usually

15:53

several people that are telling them that they need services. And I wish it wasn't that way, but I think that there's also some barriers whenever it

16:00

comes to first responders and law enforcement and um military. And it it

16:06

stinks that it's that way, but like there are realities around people

16:11

getting services for themselves and and being willing to do that. And sometimes I end up seeing people by the time that

16:18

they're like at the end of the rope versus when they were maybe at a better place and and treatment maybe could have

16:23

been a little bit easier. So that's one struggle that I also deal with too. Yeah. Just from my perspective as being

16:29

a dude, um I would I I would expect that there was like be quite a lot of ego wrapped around um the idea of wanting

16:36

help or being vulnerable or require of ne needing support and how that may be perceived as weak. Um I'd understand how

16:44

a lot of people be quite resistance to resistant to looking for support and help in in those instances. But yeah, I

16:51

hope that we're kind of coming into a place where we recognize that that is not the complete opposite of a sign of

16:57

weakness when you're looking for help. Right. And I think a a piece that really helps me is that whenever people do have

17:04

good experiences with treatment that I ask them to tell other people and a lot of times whenever someone does come out

17:10

the other end from treatment and they're they're very excited about the results and they're feeling like a new person.

17:16

Just it means so much more whenever it comes from them versus whenever you're listening to the psychologist talk. you

17:22

know, it it means so much more whenever you're talking to a colleague who's been in the trenches with you and has

17:28

experienced something and come out the other side and they can speak to their experience and give this testimonial.

17:33

And so I think that I I think we're getting to a better place of that and I'd love to see more facilitation of

17:39

that and people sharing their own personal experiences and success stories. Yeah, that would be a a huge advocacy

17:47

for that process. I'm sure about that to have all those services, you know, looked and see those individuals that have come out the other side with flying

17:54

colors because they'll be there'll be a certain point in somebody's journey where it will look like there is

17:59

absolutely no hope for them and they'll feel completely hopeless and alone and in a dark place. But if they're able to

18:05

actually look at resources, watch videos, listen to podcasts of of people who have, you know, not necessarily been in the exact same situation, but have

18:12

been in the depths of despair and have been able to see the light and work with people and come out the other side. That's that could only be a hopeful

18:19

thing to experience. Yeah, I think that that's so important when people share their story and at

18:24

least within the bureau and I imagine a lot of um first responder departments across the country and across the world

18:30

have peer support. And I think that that's really uh a huge piece of it is that I've been there. I know what it is

18:37

that you're going through and I can at least sit there and listen for you. Maybe I'm not a mental health professional. Maybe I don't have a

18:43

specialized degree, but I can at least sit there and and be present with you. And I think there's uh that can go such

18:49

a long way for sure. I mean the examples I have in my life is I've you know I've been I've

18:55

gone away and like kind of guy weekends away and a couple of instances there's been situations where people have just

19:02

like been able to actually be vulnerable and open up and let people in a little bit more in a completely different

19:07

environment. And it's a seriously um powerful therapeutic place to be in when

19:13

you can actually kind of like do that. So yeah, to have these services available and to kind of throw the

19:18

egotistical side away a little bit and just making it accessible, it's only going to benefit people, which is just

19:24

which is just amazing. Um, another piece on the trauma, uh, what are some of the like more common but overlooked signs

19:32

that someone's maybe silently suffering with something traumatic even though they may seem high functioning?

19:40

One of the things that I definitely see in my population, and I imagine that this definitely does bleed out into like

19:46

civilian life, but I would say being very short-tempered, being irritable, feeling just very frustrated, feeling

19:53

burnt out. I think that uh you know, whenever it comes to trauma, like

19:59

there's an element of that and there's an element of trying to recover from that. But then I think whenever you put on um cumulative trauma of like

20:06

continuing to see things or the unpredictability of the job of like you

20:11

never know when you're going to get a call out or what that particular call out might look like. So the trauma just

20:16

keeps compounding but also just these organizational stressors of perhaps it's like red tape or a difficult boss or

20:23

just like constant requests for admin things. I think that whenever all these things pile on, I would say that the red

20:30

flags for me that I'm looking for are like a short temper, just feeling irritable and feeling angry. And another

20:35

piece of that I think that is much more acceptable in law enforcement and military is that

20:42

instead of being emotional about it, we can easily put out anger and frustration

20:48

and irritability because that's much more acceptable and that's much more acceptable in this world that I live in

20:54

and treat. And so I would say that those are things to be looking out for, especially whenever maybe that person's

20:59

already like a little bit irritable baseline, but then whenever it kind of goes to up a couple of notches, then

21:06

that's when I would start to get concerned about a particular individual. Yeah, I think that I've recognized when

21:15

people are just being uncar uncharacteristic to their let's just say normal normal self and you can kind of,

21:21

you know, maybe ask a different question to kind of see what's going on. I'm sure people who you know are working together

21:27

in in close proximity will be able to you know recognize that this person is just off and um again it's a clearly a

21:36

sign but I think a lot of people struggle to um or don't know how to maybe approach that individual

21:43

especially if there's anger if there's irritability and a lot of people don't want to be on the end of that and

21:48

maybe have negative relationships in theuture.

21:54

future with that person. So, do you have any advice for maybe somebody like who's who's experiencing in in that with like

22:00

a friend or a family or a colleague and because yeah, it can be it can be a confusing and awkward conversation to

22:06

maybe have with someone. Yeah, it can definitely be very difficult and just anxietyprovoking to think about doing something like that.

22:13

But I would say coming at it from a non-judgmental perspective, trying to be

22:18

open, trying to be honest, and I would say giving your observations. So, say

22:25

for example, uh, hey, so and so, uh, I noticed that there have been some

22:31

changes lately, and I've seen maybe you're more irritable. I last time we

22:36

went to the bar, I think you had like two more drinks than I usually see you have, and you know, I started to see you

22:42

coming in late to work and, you know, I'm just wondering if there's anything going on. And I also want to just let

22:47

you know that I'm here to listen if you need that. and just being something

22:53

along those lines of what it is that you're seeing that you're concerned and that you're there for the person whether it's if they want to talk to you or if

22:59

they want help being connected to services and kind of leaving it very open-ended. That would be my best advice for someone who is in a situation like

23:06

that. Yeah, that sounds like it's not particularly direct question. It's not an aggressive question. It's just that

23:11

letting people know that you you see them, you hear them, and you're there for them, you know?

23:17

Yep. Yeah, exactly. It's as simple as that. and and sometimes people will take it and they'll appreciate it. Sometimes

23:23

people will brush it off, but they they've heard you. And so if they're not

23:28

ready now, they'll know that you're there when they are ready. And you know,

23:34

it's you don't know what your what your chances are, but you don't have a whole lot to lose. Chances are this friendship

23:41

or this co-workership isn't going to end just because you've approached them in a manner kind of like what I just modeled.

23:48

Yeah. Beautiful. No, that was a great answer. Thank you. Um, I'd love to talk about sleep science and recovery,

23:53

especially when it comes around trauma. So, why is sleep such a critical component in trauma recovery? And what

24:00

happens to the brain when we consistently don't get enough of it?

24:06

Those are some very loaded questions. So, we'll try and take them like one at a time, and I'll do my best to give you

24:11

a a good answer. So, whenever it comes to sleep, why is it important? Sleep literally touches everything. We have as

24:18

a society a terrible habit of brushing off sleep, of thinking that it doesn't matter, of thinking that whenever you

24:24

turn off the lights to go to bed that you're also turning off your brain and turning off your body. And that just

24:30

simply couldn't be further from the truth. Your brain and body are so incredibly active with such critical and

24:36

vital functions throughout the night that that and also that's the only time

24:41

that some of these functions can take place too. So if we're thinking about it, our creativity, our problem solving,

24:47

our body's ability to build immunity towards things, our body's ability to

24:53

kind of relax and give all of our organs a rest, there's so many various different things that are going on in

24:59

the brain and body when we're sleeping. So, as you can imagine, when sleep touches everything, if we are not

25:05

prioritizing sleep, if we're not getting the amount of sleep that we need each night, which I imagine most of the people who are listening here are

25:12

adults. Normally, adults need 7 to n hours of sleep per night. And that may

25:18

sound like a lot, and for some people it may sound like quote unquote wasted time, but

25:25

I mean really truly sleep is one of the best things that you can do for yourself. So, so you're laughing. Tell

25:31

me more. Well, it's so I it's so obvious to me. I'm a I'm a parent of two young kids.

25:37

So, my my experience of sleep pre 33 years of age was very very different to

25:44

the last six years of having children. And you don't you don't really know the

25:50

value of sleep until you have babies and and little people around where it's just madness. It's amazing madness,

25:57

but it's like you won't realize how important sleep is until you really have kids.

26:03

So, yeah. Yeah, I think that it's it's it's funny and and it's not just sleep, but it's like water consumption,

26:09

movement, um even breath. These are super foundational pieces that we need

26:14

to like really be on when it comes to trying to be a good quality human being

26:21

and experience our biology as it's supposed to be. But it's things we just like people just don't even think about,

26:28

let alone care about. And sleep is without question. I think if you were to

26:33

tackle sleep like first as like a let's you want to get your health back on track, you want to lose weight, you want

26:39

to y start feeling better, like without question like getting a sleep routine,

26:44

you're going to significantly improve every symptom you've got like kind of like really really quickly. But like why

26:50

why is it like sleep, water, movement, nutrition, breath? Like why do we not why do we not think or even care about

26:56

these things? Tell me please. What I think is that in today's society,

27:02

everybody wants a magic bullet. Everybody wants to feel better, to lose weight, to perform better, to fill in

27:08

the blank, but we don't want to do the work. And that's as a psychologist a lot

27:13

of and I I'm also a prescribing psychologist, which means that I can prescribe sleep prescriptions. However,

27:19

that's in my my career of prescribing. So far, I have yet to do that because that's not something that I believe in

27:26

because I would 100% rather see you do behavioral modifications and environmental modifications. But just

27:33

like I said, people want this magic bullet. They don't want to make changes. And I think that kind of goes handinhand

27:38

with you don't know what you don't know is what I mentioned earlier. So I think that there's like an education piece

27:43

that needs to come into it. There also needs to be motivation and there also needs to be like willingness to change

27:49

the habits that may be getting in your own way because oftentimes there's so many things that we do that we're getting in our own way. But I'd rather

27:56

just have a sleeping pill or a sleeping prescription versus making some small changes that could get you exactly where

28:03

you need to be. Yeah, it's fun. Humans are so funny and

28:08

weird and we have and we obviously have like big business is is catering to that laziness that we have, right? Um so we

28:17

are we yeah it's it's tough to be conscious about these fundamental things because we've got know we're getting

28:22

we're getting information and things and gadgets and all sorts and drugs and just

28:28

just kind of thrown at us from right, left and center. So it can be it can be a confusing terrain and life is

28:33

stressful in 2025 anyway. We live in a very confusing planet. Yes. So, it's like, is there one less thing I

28:40

can like not worry about? And it's like, okay, maybe I can take a sleeping pill. Maybe I can just like, you know, take a

28:45

GLP1 thing and and, you know, lose weight. Like, these are just very it's

28:50

just a very human thing to do, but it's like very antihuman when we really want to look at like our evolutionary

28:57

biology. Yeah. I think it's just like how can I make a shortcut? Um, and whenever you

29:02

think about it, right, like we we should be spending so much time sleeping. If you're doing seven to nine hours and you

29:09

should be spending a third of your life asleep. So, say for example, you live to be 90, that's 30 years spent sleeping.

29:15

Like, that's a massive chunk of time. So, I can see why people would, not that

29:22

you should, but I could see why people would want to cut into that so they could have more me time, more family time, more time for a side hustle so

29:28

they can get further up the career ladder or whatever the case may be. I get it. But the shortcut for sleep, like

29:36

there just simply is not one. Do you think people are really choosing to have

29:41

a terrible sleep routine because they want to spend more time with their families or they want to do other things

29:49

to benefit different parts of their life? Or do you think it's just we've got Netflix, we got cell phones, we've

29:55

got all these things that just like fuel dopamine 24/7 and you know, and then you

30:02

know, they can wake up, you know, they can go to bed at 2 a.m. after having a Netflix binge and wake up at 7 or 8, go to work, they can just like smash

30:08

coffee, consume loads of sugary calories in the morning and get through it.

30:13

I just I I feel that's more like that rather than like, oh, I'm gonna try and do the Tim Ferrris like sleep two hours

30:20

a day thing and have 15 minute naps all over the place so I can be more efficient in the stock market or

30:25

something. Do you know what I mean? I think that people

30:30

do themselves a disservice, but I don't think that they realize that they are. And when I say that, you know, I I'll

30:38

have an audience and I'll ask people, "How many hours of sleep did you get last night?" And I just to be devil's advocate I'll say nine hours and I'll

30:44

ask people to raise their hands. How about eight, seven, six? Okay, less than six. And whenever I'm doing this like

30:51

oftentimes it's people who raise their hand like the the vast majority is 6 hours or less and I'm like okay you know

30:57

we need to have a conversation. So I don't think that it's people necessarily like wanting to do harm to their brain

31:04

and body. I think that it's just and this is like a trendy word that I'm hearing now more and more is like sleep,

31:10

revenge, procrastination. And so it's basically our days are so busy. There's

31:15

so much going on. There's so many things vying for our attention and our priority. So that you know maybe you

31:21

wake up, you take care of your kids, you get them to school, you go to a full day of work, you come home, you do making

31:28

dinners and then like shower and then tucking your kids in. And by the end of that, like there's no time for me. So

31:34

that's where that new term of revenge procrastination is coming in or revenge sleep procrastination, excuse me, where

31:41

it's like I have no time for me. And where is that? Because we need to make that. And so that's where we're getting

31:47

into like the Netflix or the Tik Tok scrolling or whatever it is. And you you hit the nail on the head whenever it

31:52

comes to dopamine, right? Like dopamine is this naturally occurring hormone that's being or I should say

31:58

neurotransmitter that's being released into our brain that's like hey I like whatever this is that we're doing let's

32:04

do more of it and so it whatever that thing is becomes addicting whether

32:10

that's watching the next episode reading the next chapter continuing to scroll and watch more funny cat videos. So, I

32:17

think there's a piece of it that we're controlling and then I think there's a piece of it that dopamine's kind of taking over and and we kind of like lose

32:23

control of the wheel. Yeah, I mentioned it before like I think there know there are there are

32:28

scientists working within companies to see, you know, how much how how much more attention they can grab from

32:33

people, right? Um, and it's yeah, it's our own biology working against us. I

32:38

wonder if you were if you're able to kind of give us a real like foundational idea of,

32:44

you know, how we would experience the sun, how we would experience the stars, how we would experience sleep as it was

32:51

intended for our biology today and how, you know, lights and phones and screens

32:57

etc. get in the way of that. We spoke about it a few times on the show before, but if you wouldn't mind, it would be really

33:03

great to foundational piece. Thank you. Yeah, one of the things that I love to do, and I've already done it once on

33:09

this podcast, is talk about our caveman ancestors. Because even though it has been such a long period of time since

33:14

then, our brains, while they are the most incredibly complex device in the entire universe,

33:22

and as you mentioned, we still don't know everything that there is to know about them. They're still wired in a way that sun is

33:30

our strongest predictor for our circadian rhythm. And so just to kind of break that down a

33:36

little bit, we all have a biological timekeeper, if you will. And that lives

33:42

in the brain. Its formal name is our super kaismatic nucleus. Very fancy. And

33:47

it is connected to the pineal gland. And the pineal gland is what will release

33:52

melatonin. Everybody's heard of melatonin. That's obviously very trendy right now, too. But you may or may not

33:58

know that your body naturally makes that. It doesn't only come from a store. your body naturally makes melatonin. And

34:05

the way that we can capitalize on this is by going all the way back to caveman ancestor days and really being in tune

34:12

with the sun and the the darkness. So, how did our caveman ancestors know that

34:18

it was time to be awake and to be alert and to be going about their day? The sun came up. How did they know when it was

34:25

time to go to sleep? The sun went down. And so back then, yeah, they probably

34:32

had fire, but they didn't have overhead lights and lamps and screens and phones and all kinds of things. It's, you know,

34:38

I kind of like to equate it to if you've ever been to Vegas or if you've ever been to a casino, you can be in there at

34:45

any time of day, it doesn't matter. And the amount of bright light and stimulation and noise and like fresh

34:52

fresh oxygen that they're pumping in, you would never know what time it is outside. and it's meant to be

34:57

purposefully disorienting to keep you in there and to not be able to keep track of time. That's a whole another

35:03

psychological story. But nonetheless, we are still programmed with light as our

35:09

strongest force for our circadian rhythm. So, one of the ways that we can take advantage of that is within one

35:15

hour of waking up, going outside and no sunglasses, looking towards the sun,

35:20

don't burn your retinas, but just being out there for a few minutes. And that's going to be something that's going to be really strong for our circadian rhythm

35:27

because if there's any like lingering melatonin, the sun will come in through the eyes back to the super kaismatic

35:33

nucleus, back to the pineal gland, and it'll shut off any melatonin that's happening, but it will also serve to

35:38

bost alertness and wakefulness and just really tell the brain, hey, it's time to wake up. And then as we go about our

35:46

day, since we did that early in the morning, then one of the other ways that

35:51

we're kind of building off of our caveman ancestors is the setting of the sun. So right now, as we're recording this, it's summertime. Where I live, the

35:58

sun is setting probably around like 9ish p.m. And for me, this is what I personally do. And I realize that maybe

36:05

not everybody has the luxury of being able to do this, but I have lots of windows where I live. So I try not to turn on any artificial light. I just let

36:12

the sun come in through the windows and I kind of enjoy just watching the sunset out my window and allowing that change,

36:20

that gradual change in lighting to just come in naturally through my eyes and for that to be the cue to my brain that

36:26

hey, it's time to start feeling sleepy. And that is again, I'm trying my best

36:33

with battling against modern technology to be able to still do what my body was

36:39

designed to do. And so the way that we get in our own way a lot is that as it starts to get dark and this is obviously

36:45

more challenging whenever it's winter time and whenever it gets dark earlier for a lot of places. But then when we

36:52

turn on all of our lights and the lights are really bright and they're kind of this like blue wavelength because the

36:58

problem with this and I think blue light is also a very trendy thing right now is that the reason why is that blue light

37:05

is the same wavelength as sunlight. So, whenever you've got your screen like so close to your face or your iPad or your

37:13

laptop screen or whatever, all these are emitting blue light. And when they're so close to your eyes like that, especially

37:19

when we're winding down and getting ready for bed, the brain gets confused because it thinks, "Oh, well, I thought

37:26

it was time to start getting ready for bed, but now I have this really bright light coming into my eyes. I guess

37:31

that's the sun. I guess I'll turn off melatonin." And so that's one of the ways that we are getting in our own way

37:37

is when we're using these artificial lights closer and closer to our desired bedtime.

37:44

That was beautiful. Thank you. That was great. Now I I I often talk about

37:50

caveman times all the time on the podcast because whenever I think about something, I'm like, what would what would I have done 10,000 years ago? Like

37:56

what would my body have done? What environment would I have been in? Because my biology is not really diff different. But my envir so similar.

38:03

Yeah. my environment and the culture that we have is is is viciously different and our biology is is nowhere

38:09

near caught up to it. So, exactly. Yeah, I love that. I always think about how um

38:16

easy it would have been to be in absolute awe of nature when every night

38:21

when the sun went down, you looked up at the stars and there was no uh light pollution and you would just see

38:28

billions of stars up there doing their thing. like how you wouldn't just like think that everything is just an absolute dream and just incredible, but

38:35

we don't have that anymore. Like there's literally like handfuls of places on the planet now where you can go and like actually experience that. And I I I feel

38:43

that there is a big lack of spirituality in our culture and that's I think that's

38:48

a big part of it. Like we we've lost this kind of sense that we would have had every single night and we would have

38:54

made stories. We would have connected the stars and all that type of thing. And I think that's just that's just a part a little bit of a piece missing

39:00

from our human experience at the moment is this this spirituality spirituality piece. And it all stems from the how

39:06

we've um changed our environment when it comes to sleep and and in cities. But

39:11

thank you so much for that explanation. That was that was really good. I love that. Thank you. Um you specialize in helping people with

39:19

insomnia, nightmares, and CPAP resistance. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, for the whenever it comes

39:25

to sleep and sleep disorders, people don't realize this, but there are there are so many and there are ones that

39:33

inevitably you've never heard of before. So, I don't pretend to know everything that there is to know about sleep, but

39:39

yes, whenever it comes to like the most common sleep problems, I can probably give you some pretty good advice and get

39:45

you on a good track. Yeah. Well, I'm sure like I mean the medical community absolutely loves to

39:51

create like new specific di diagnosis, right? And put it on this massive spectrum of just like sleep problems and

39:58

but I think yeah, as you say, like if someone was to read your book and follow your follow your ideas and be a part of

40:04

your programs, probably going to take care of 99% of those things on that spectrum. Um,

40:09

exactly. Yes. Yes. What are what are some of the most effective sciencebacked

40:14

sleep interventions that you've seen work even when you know nothing else seems to help people?

40:21

Yeah. Yeah. So, if we're talking about actual interventions and not just like tips and tricks, CBTI, cognitive

40:27

behavioral therapy for insomnia, and that is kind of a collection of tips and

40:33

tricks, sleep hygiene, how are you thinking about sleep, changing the way that you think about sleep, because

40:38

chances are you probably think about it or frame it in a negative way. Um, and then there are depending upon the

40:44

severity of how someone is doing and how they're sleeping, then we can kind of get to the outer realms and and do some

40:50

more extreme work. But I would say cognitive behavioral therapy hands down is the gold standard for helping people

40:56

who are having sleep issues. And then as you said earlier, I help people with nightmares as well. And the gold

41:02

standard treatment for that is imagery rehearsal therapy, IRT. That one's fabulous. It's super simple. It is best

41:10

for people who have recurrent nightmares. So that nightmare that happens over and over again that I think a lot of us can relate to. That is what

41:18

IRT is wonderful for. And I've seen great results using both CBTI, cognitive

41:24

behavioral therapy for insomnia and imagery rehearsal therapy. So those are when people come to me for sleep issues,

41:31

I'm picking and choosing my favorite pieces out of usually both of those or just one if they need it. And uh and

41:38

then oftentimes, you know, we started the episode with talking about trauma. And I would say because of the

41:45

uniqueness of my job and the population that I work with, I get a lot of referrals from other mental health

41:50

professionals because I've made this name for myself as the Bureau's Sleep Expert. And a lot of these referrals are

41:56

like, "Hey, uh Leah, you know, I've got a client here who's having sleep issues. Can I refer them to you?" And I'm like, "Yeah, of course, absolutely." And then

42:03

I would say like nine times out of 10 and again I think this has to do with my particular population that I work with a

42:09

lot of that is it no I have no doubt that you're having sleep issues but I think a lot of it or a piece of it is

42:16

underlying depression, anxiety, stress or untreated trauma that's also showing

42:21

up or manifesting as a sleep disorder. So, I think there's several things that go hand inand. So, asking about interventions, um, if someone is also

42:30

struggling in the daytime and and kind of once we like uncover that and tease things apart, the few other tools that

42:35

I'm absolutely in love with are I'm certified in EMDR and I'm also certified in brain spotting. So, those if they're

42:41

appropriate, I will also pull those out of my toolkit and use those as well. Very cool. And I'll make sure you know

42:48

your your book's going to be out this year, so I'll make sure that there are links to people can can find that because I'm sure a lot of that

42:54

information is going to be in there as well. And I know nutrition isn't in your

43:00

wheelhouse, but you've spoken about the pineal gland and melatonin and those things aren't possible. Melatonin is not

43:06

possible without, you know, the right foundational amino acids to produce it. So, I just wondered your opinions on

43:12

kind of how important nutrition is when it comes to restoring brain health chemistry, especially in people dealing

43:18

with trauma, burnout, chronic insomnia. And you're absolutely right. This is not

43:24

something that I have delved deeply in, and I'm certainly claiming to be no expert in this, but I think that

43:29

everything works together. I think that, you know, if you're eating like excuse my French, you're probably going

43:35

to feel like So, you know, there's a lot of different factors that come into play. And so, I think that

43:40

nutrition and making sure that we're putting the right fuel in our tank absolutely plays a critical piece in the

43:46

whole puzzle and the whole person. Love it. Yeah. It's I mean you I mean

43:52

you you are what you eat essentially. Your body can only produce what it can produce with what you give it to produce

43:58

it. So, you know, if you if melatonin, which we know is a massively important part of sleep, how are you going to be

44:04

able to produce a steady supply of that if you're not providing it the right amino acids that actually make up

44:11

melatonin? I think I think the cascade is like tryptophan to serotonin and to melatonin. So, if you're unable to

44:18

create that cascade of events and you don't have the ingredients to do that, then your body is going to absolutely

44:24

struggle. And we know that well we know here at True Hope, you know, we've had hundreds of thousands of people who have

44:30

know come to us with depression and anxiety and nine times out of 10 they have sleep problems. Like I would say

44:36

like I guess that every single time when somebody is struggling with depression and anxiety they've got sleep issues whether Yep.

44:41

whether that's insomnia or falling asleep or whatever that might be. And once you're able to actually positively

44:49

impact the gut with nut with good quality nutrition, then you know we see that people are actually fueling their

44:55

bodies with what their body actually needs to you know help them have good quality gut health and therefore produce

45:01

the neurochemistry necessary to you know have good quality sleep to have the energy they need to get up in get up uh

45:08

in the morning etc. So yeah the yeah the nutrition piece is the very exciting part of what we do here at True Hope. We

45:14

have some interesting products that we kind of combine to kind of take care of all the necessary requirements that you

45:19

would need to, you know, put into a good good sleep protocol that which would absolutely combine beautifully with with

45:25

what you're talking about with the with the practices. So, yeah, I love it. I think nutrition is a very important

45:32

foundational piece honestly for honestly like any disorder that people might have like nutrition is a is a key part.

45:39

chronic nutrient deficiency is is is wildly prevalent throughout, you know, the western world. And if we can just

45:45

kind of hopefully take care of that a little bit, a lot of people are going to be able to come out the other end and just start feeling great because that's

45:51

what we all really want, I guess. Um, absolutely. Many most of our listeners aren't FBI

45:58

agents. I'm just a guess. I would be surprised if any Well, I don't want to say anybody, but we have a

46:03

very small population is what I should say. Like you think that we're omnipresent, we're everywhere, but we're actually a very small organization of

46:09

about 37,000 people. So, we're not as omnipresent as you might think. For sure. But yeah, most of our

46:15

listeners aren't FBI agents, but you know, their their parents, they're caregivers and professionals who, you

46:20

know, are simply burnt out. So, what advice would you give to someone who feels like they're, you know, living in

46:27

this constant state of fight or flight in a stress response?

46:32

I think that a lot of people are probably struggling with that right now. And yeah, it doesn't matter who you are, what you do.

46:39

Everybody can relate to that sympathetic nervous system activation. And the best

46:45

possible thing that you can do for yourself is find ways to counteract that with parasympathetic

46:52

activation. And so that's our rest and digest. And if there are things that are

46:57

relaxing and I think you know one of the one of the really interesting things whenever I work with people I'll you

47:03

know ask them lots of questions get a chance to get to know them and I'll ask them you know what are your coping mechanisms like what do you do to blow

47:09

off steam and a lot of people don't understand the question don't have an answer like I'll try and like frame it a

47:15

couple of other ways and they just kind of look at me like I I don't know how I

47:20

deal with stress I don't know how to blow off steam and so that may or may not be the case for the people who are

47:26

listening, but I would say that would be one of the very first questions that you need to ask yourself is how do you

47:32

relax? How do you find peace? How do you find joy? How do you find things that are relaxing and enjoyable or maybe even

47:39

distracting for you? And that will be a way for you to work towards that

47:45

parasympathetic rest and digest. Yeah, I think it's I think it's a big struggle for a lot of people to actually

47:51

sit down and think about what is what is it that actually I can do that puts my body in a in a healing phase.

47:57

Yeah. Because we are, you know, we are so busy, you know, it's what life is

48:03

expensive and we're having to, you know, stretch our capacity during our day to

48:09

really limit that kind of recreational time. And it it takes it takes like ef

48:14

it's funny. It takes effort and intention to create the time necessary

48:19

to know allow the body to be in like a healing state. And even when people are in a healing state of sleep, which is

48:26

kind of exactly what it's designed to do, we're going to sleep stressed and we've got this chronic sympathetic um

48:32

program just constantly running. And even that six, seven, eight, nine hours of sleep for people can actually be a,

48:38

you know, a stressful part and the body's the body's not actually doing its kind of clean up healing duty that it's

48:44

supposed to do during sleep. So, it's it's just funny that we're in a in a world situation now where people like

48:50

really have to be conscious and actively work at

48:57

chilling out. Mhm. And for those who are listening and they're asking themselves this question and they you don't have an

49:03

answer for this, I would say experiment. There are lots of things that you can do that are free that you could try out and

49:08

see if it works for you and just give it a period of time and see if it works for you. Going outside and doing some deep

49:13

breathing, petting your dog, going for a walk, just being in nature, getting a pen and paper

49:20

and doing some old school journaling, listening to some music that you like. There are lots of different things that

49:26

you can do for free and you can see is this something that is helping me kind

49:31

of disconnect from this stress and these anxious thoughts that I'm having.

49:37

Yeah. Wonderful. One piece of advice I I have just as a parent is like don't don't uh feel ashamed of asking for

49:43

help. Like my my wife very frequently doesn't want me to because we live in Canada with her family. My family's

49:49

8,000 km away. Um, and she doesn't always want to ask for help from her family, but I have absolutely no problem

49:56

with that. And it's uh it's it's a big, you know, just to have the kids off our

50:01

hands for for an hour where we can actually sit and do nothing together is like unbelievably restoring. So, yeah, I

50:10

I would say if you do have friends, family, whatever around you, you know, I I think deep down people do want to

50:16

support each other and take care of each other. And yeah, don't be afraid to ask for that support.

50:21

Absolutely. I think that's a great addition. Beautiful. Uh just a couple more questions. We're going to finish up um

50:28

with a question about your book, but just one before that. I know that you've you know, you traveled the world educating law enforcement about sleep

50:35

and trauma. What What's one of the like biggest myths or misconceptions that you consistently run into um within your

50:42

work? Are we Is this a specific sleep question

50:47

or a trauma question? Let's say sleep. Let's say sleep. Okay, let's say sleep. Um, I would say

50:52

the the common myths are like nothing happens when you sleep. Sleep isn't important. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Um,

50:59

I'm just fine on five hours of sleep. Like I I would say that a lot of those are the ones that I hear and I'm like,

51:05

okay, let's do some education. And that's also part of the reason why I wrote the book

51:10

is that I think there's so many people who can benefit from it. There's just not enough hours in the day for me. And

51:15

that's why I got to the point that I'm at is that I think there's so much good information and so much myth busting

51:21

that needs to be done that uh I'm only one person. And so I have to try and figure out a way to put it on podcast,

51:27

put on social media, put it into a book so that uh I'm not limited by the amount of hours that I have in the day to help

51:34

people. Perfect. That's why we're here. We're trying to have these conversations to spread this message to let people know

51:39

that there are amazing people out there like yourself. There are amazing books, resources, solutions that people can

51:46

that can take. And I think you've mentioned it before, a lot of these practices are, you know, free and accessible from from anywhere.

51:53

Yeah. And I think that that's what's so important is just Yeah, these things are free. Like give them a try. See how they

52:00

work for you. And if it doesn't work, if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But give it a shot.

52:06

Yeah, cup of tea. Definitely. That's chamomile. There you go. Chamomile, bath, meditation, breathing, yoga. Go.

52:12

Um, so let's finish off talking about your book. So, the new book, I think it's called The Sleep Advantage, and

52:17

it's launching in October. So, it's coming out on October 1st, and we had to change the title because it

52:23

turns out someone else already has that title. So, the new title that I'm very excited about is called If Sleep Were a

52:28

Drug. Love that. I think that's way better. I think so, too. Honestly, I'm actually

52:34

kind of glad that someone took that title and we came up with the new better one. That's way better. It's provocative.

52:39

That's going to that I like that a lot. Me, too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

52:45

Yeah. What do you hope readers are going to take away from this book and how do you want it to, you know, change the way

52:51

people think about sleep, mental health, trauma, etc.? Yeah. So, whenever I do a a live

52:57

lecture, and this is kind of the way that I wrote the book, was how do I interact with a live audience and how do

53:02

I get their attention? Because a lot of times I will have a captive audience where I'm at a conference and everyone

53:08

is in the same room all day long. So, you don't have an opportunity to pick and choose. You don't go to other like pick which one you want to go to. So,

53:15

oftentimes I have a captive audience and I think people just don't care about sleep. They're going to tune out. Maybe they're going to have their nap while

53:20

I'm talking, which I'm totally used to. It's okay. that's a sign of sleep deprivation.

53:26

But what I will do is I will start by throwing out some scary statistics and getting people's attention that way. And

53:32

then once I kind of have them hooked, and that's exactly what I do at the beginning of the book is just throwing out some scary statistics about what

53:39

your brain should be doing at night. And if you're not giving yourself adequate opportunity to sleep, here's how you're

53:45

setting yourself up for failure in all these various different domains. And then I talk about you don't know what

53:52

you don't know is a big theme within my book and just hey let me walk you through this and you've probably heard

53:58

about blue light but why? You've probably heard about this but why? And so each chapter they're kind of like

54:03

mini chapters and I talk about um scrolling and screens and dopamine and just breaking down like why these things

54:10

are hindering our ability to get a good night's rest. And I hope that by doing

54:15

it that way, people have a much better understanding. And at least for me, when I understand the science behind

54:20

something, I also can't unknow it. And so then whenever I go to choose what behaviors I'm going to engage in, I have

54:28

to be particular about it and I have to be intentional about it. And I think that that's what's important. And as a

54:33

psychologist and and thinking about the stages of change and if for those of you who are listening who may not be familiar, we have pre-contemplation,

54:41

which is when you don't know that there's a problem. You have contemplation where you realize there's a problem but you're like not really

54:47

sure if you want to do anything about it. Action. And so as we're what I'm

54:52

trying to do to move you through this book is to try and get you to the action phase where I'm telling maybe you didn't

54:58

even know there was a problem. Now I'm telling you there's a problem. I'm telling you some ways to go about it. And then I hope that I get you to the

55:05

action phase. And then there's also kind of like a troubleshooting section too where if you're if you can't fall asleep

55:10

at night, if you're having problems staying awake in the middle of the night, if you are having nightmares, these are things that we can do. And

55:17

this is um kind of a a troubleshooting manual for what you can do. So I I'm hoping that it's going to be really

55:23

comprehensive and a guide of just really practical hands-on things that you could pick up the book, you could read a

55:28

chapter, and you can make a change tonight. Dr. Le, you're awesome. That's very,

55:34

very cool. I love it. Thanks. Thank you. Um I'm really excited. I actually just one more question about

55:39

um about wearables. What your opinion on wearables for like sleep kind of assessment and seeing where people are

55:46

at because there's a lot of devices out there, a lot of very expensive devices and uh yeah, what do you think?

55:52

Yeah, you you make a great point. So, you're talking to someone who right now is wearing a smartwatch, a smart ring. I

55:59

have a smart bed. And here's the bottom line is that I practice what I preach. So, a lot of the things that you read in

56:06

the book, yes, I h I have an eightle. What it is is that it is uh you have

56:11

your own existing mattress, but it is kind of at least my model, which is a few years old now at this point, is kind

56:17

of like a fancy fitted sheet that goes over your current bed and then it comes with something that kind of looks like a

56:23

old school computer tower that goes right next to your bed and you fill it with water like once every six months.

56:28

And it comes with an app. And the reason why I got this is, don't ask why, but where I live, we really don't need air

56:35

conditioning. And that may sound really crazy for people who live in the United States and who are totally used to complete climate control, but I have

56:42

heat, but I don't have air. So June, July, and August, where I live do get very hot and it's very difficult for me

56:48

to sleep because I'm a hot sleeper. So I got this. I tried a couple of other different products and just really didn't cut it for me. And then I

56:55

splurged on the EightLe. And the reason why I did is it can go all the way down to 55° Fahrenheit and all the way up to

57:01

110. And it is supposed to learn your body. So one of the other ways that our

57:06

body knows that it's time to fall asleep in addition to light that we talked about earlier is that your internal body

57:12

temperature should drop one to two maybe even 3° for you to be able to fall

57:17

asleep. And your temperature will shift and change throughout the night and then it will rise as it's time for you to

57:23

wake up. So, with the eight sleeve, one of the things that I thought was just really cool about it and the marketing

57:28

was that it is supposed to learn you, and it has an autopilot feature. So, it will learn what temperature you like to

57:35

fall asleep to, what temperature you like when you're falling asleep in the middle of the night, and when you're waking up. And so, I just thought that

57:40

it was a really cool, innovative idea and would kind of solve my air conditioning problem. And, uh, it's been

57:47

wonderful. I'm obsessed with it. Uh, I travel a fair amount and so I cannot take it with me, unfortunately. eight

57:53

sleep. If you're listening, please create a travel edition. I'll be the first to purchase it. Um, but I I love

57:58

it. It's wonderful. And then there's an app that comes along with it that you can see. Um, what time did you fall asleep, what time did you wake up, time

58:04

and light sleep, deep sleep, REM sleep, and HRV and everything else. So, um, without, you know, I' I've taken you

58:10

down a rabbit hole, but I would say, you know, I have all of these devices and I'm I'm lucky enough to have all of

58:16

these, but in all honesty, there was a point in time where I was really interested in looking at them, but more

58:22

so nowadays, I just go off how I'm feeling. Yeah. And that's, you know, what we've always

58:29

done until we had devices like this. And there are some that are great and there are some that are getting pretty close

58:34

to professional quality. And you can certainly do your research out there as far as which ones those are. Um, but I

58:42

would say always take it with a grain of salt, too, right? Like every now and again I'll be like hanging out on my couch and just have a lazy day and it's

58:47

like, "Hey, congratulations. You slept 18 hours last night and I'm like, "No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I just had a lazy

58:54

day." So, I would just say take it with a grain of salt. You know, we're also getting into this place in life where

59:00

we're tracking so many different things and we're getting into now there's um a disorder orthosomnia where we are so

59:07

worked up about tracking things and specifically tracking sleep with this terminology that our anxiety about

59:14

tracking sleep and getting enough sleep and kind of like biohacking this that we're doing ourselves a disservice and

59:20

we're sleeping worse because we have this heightened anxiety around it. So, I would say, yeah, you're talking to

59:25

someone who has three, the bed, the ring, and the watch. And yet, I couldn't even tell you when was the last time I

59:31

opened up any of those to look at the sleep data, just because at this point in time, I'd rather just listen to my

59:37

body because that's my best indicator of how I'm doing. Yeah, I haven't looked at my Aura Ring

59:42

app in probably a month. But just having the Ring on makes me aware that I about

59:48

how important my sleep is. Like, it's it's quite interesting. I I love the idea of using some of these technologies

59:54

to kind of get a grip and get an assessment of what's going on. But as you say, like we want to we really want

1:00:00

the the intuitive nature of your own body and your mind to guide you forward rather than being kind of rellyant on an

1:00:06

app or statistics. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I work with a lot of people and I think

1:00:11

everyone now probably has some type of smartwatch. I'd be surprised if you know most listeners don't, but I'm very old

1:00:17

school. And so when I work with people, I ask them to track their sleep on paper and pencil. And it's great if you have

1:00:22

some smart data. Like that's wonderful, but I really prefer paper and pencil because I also think that that just

1:00:29

makes you very aware and cognizant and hopefully more intentional about what it

1:00:34

is that you're doing with your sleep and wake patterns and caffeine and and napping and alcohol and all those things that we didn't touch on yet today.

1:00:42

Yeah, I don't think the app's going to tell you whether you feel happy or sad really, but if you had like a that you

1:00:47

can actually look at and go back, then without question, that's going to be just as effective.

1:00:54

Yeah. Amazing. Well, that was great, Dr. Le. Thank you so much for coming on the

1:00:59

show. Um, sleep obviously is so viciously important to every single one

1:01:04

of us. Very excited for your book. I'm going to make sure that um as soon as that comes available, I'm going to get

1:01:10

that linked in and we will um make sure all the links necessary to connect with you are available. But um what's the

1:01:18

best place for people to connect with you? Sure. So everywhere I'm drank Kaylor.

1:01:24

That's the name of my website. That's where I am on LinkedIn. And then if you want to get in touch, you can email me

1:01:30

at infodleakaylor.com. Amazing. Well, I'll make sure that's all

1:01:36

in the show notes so people can can connect with you. But Dr. Le, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

1:01:41

Thank you. It was an absolute pleasure. Wonderful. Well, that is it for this episode of True Hope Cast, the official

1:01:47

podcast of True Hope Canada. Again, all the links that you may need to connect with Dr. Le will be in the show notes.

1:01:52

You can leave us a rating on iTunes and Spotify if you fancy doing that. That's it for this week. We'll see you soon.

1:01:58

Sleep well, everyone.