0:00

hi there and welcome to True Hope cast where we take a deep dive into mental Health's many physiological and

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psychological aspects in this wild but beautiful world this is the show for you if you're looking for motivation

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inspiration knowledge and solutions that's what we are all about here at true hope Canada and true hope Canada is

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a mind and body based supplement company dedicated first and foremost to promoting brain and body Health through

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non-invasive nutritional means for more information about us please visit truehopecanada.com today I welcome

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Chelsea Cole to the podcast Now Chelsea is a licensed psychotherapist a coach and speaker specializing in narcissistic

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abuse and relationship trauma she's the author of If Only I'd known how to outsmart narcissists set guilt-free

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boundaries and create unshakable self-worth she's currently pursuing a doctor in Social Psychology from Liberty

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University now something new for the podcast we're going to be asking each guest for solution-based ideas to a

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specific question today um Chelsea's question is what red flags show you that you have a nice narcissist

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in your life and the grand topic for our discussion today is going to be warning signs that you are being

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narcissistically abused enjoy the show Chelsea welcome to True Hope cast thank

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you so much for being with us today how are you what is going well I'm doing great thank you so much for

1:18

having me and we were just chatting about how the weather is it's quite hot here

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um I'm in Tennessee but it's going good it's going into the fall season which is my favorite so I'm super excited for the

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pumpkins yeah full season's a super fun one for sure I like I like wearing Cardigans I

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like going out um wrapped up in you know you know kind of windier cooler temperatures and yeah

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the pumpkins and the Pumpkin Patches are just yeah it's a whole new Dynamic for the kids let's go out and do that type

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of thing so yeah full season's the best I think most people would agree with you yes I know there I've seen so many tick

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tocks and people out there about like it's pumpkin season when you go to Walmart and they finally put the Halloween stuff up people are like yes

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it's here yeah they usually do that two months before though so you know yeah

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it's okay yeah we're ready for it yeah we are that's great well today we're going to be discussing the warning signs

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you are being narcissistically abused and at the end of the podcast we're going to offer some

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solutions to the question what red flags should you um what reflects show you that you have a narcissist in your life

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so we're going to cover that towards the end of the course of the talk and I'm sure we're going to cover very many

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different topics which are going to evolve around that but just to kick things off would you mind giving us a

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bit of an introduction to who you are and what it is that you do please

2:42

I'm a psychotherapist and certified partner trauma therapist specializing in narcissistic abuse and relational trauma

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I always tell people that I get it on many levels I have been there too I'm not just a therapist who decided to

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specialize in this I've kind of been dealing with narcissists unknowingly all my life I've had many relationships with

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them and continue to have to deal with them in some capacity so I get it on

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many levels I'm also an author I just wrote a book which I'm sure we can talk about but very excited about that as

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well very cool well I want to just start from the basics here I I have an idea of what

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a narcissist is and I've had them in my life as well but can you just tell us like what is what is a narcissist it's

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so important to start there because narcissist is a buzzword these days and so if someone doesn't do what you want

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then you say oh you're such a narcissist and that's really not what we're talking about so narcissism is a personality

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trait that exists on a spectrum you can be a little narcissistic to highly narcissistic and when we talk about

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narcissism as a personality trait we're talking about things like grandiosity superficiality superiority entitlement

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interpersonal exploitativeness and a lack of empathy narcissists tend to have

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these self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success power Brilliance

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attractiveness they tend to focus on having very superficial personality traits like being Charming charismatic

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they care about what things look like but not really who they are behind you

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know behind closed doors they have a sense of superiority like that I'm better than other people they kind of

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put themselves above others they're very entitled they believe they deserve special treatment not because

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they've done anything in particular simply because they're exit they exist their time is more important what they

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want is more important everything takes precedence over you um they also use people as pawns they

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they allow to you charm you manipulate you all depends on what they need from you at the time and the Hallmark trade

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of narcissism is just a lack of empathy narcissists just don't care how their

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behaviors impact you and they're often kind of annoyed or disgusted if you share your feelings with them

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interesting it's an interesting topic because say for example if I had a psychological

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disorder and I went to a doctor and I ended up getting a diagnosis for for that for me

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um that would be very different than say someone who comes to talk to you about a narcissist in their life so you're kind

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of you're diagnosing somebody else through the your client so

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quite different in regards to that respect right very different I'm so glad you bring that up because there is a

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difference between narcissism as a personality trait and NPD narcissistic personality disorder that's why some

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people honestly advocate for removing NPD altogether because then we get into

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this well am I diagnosing them by describing someone's behaviors actually no so when people come to me let's say

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and we're working together in therapy then I'm I you know you can't diagnose someone you don't see

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so what I will be doing and what I encourage clients to be doing and everyone to be doing is looking for

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patterns of behavior it's like you know we don't have a problem saying that

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someone's extroverted or you're very agreeable or you tend to be a conscientious person like we're

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describing patterns of behavior agreeable people tend to be helpful and kind conscientious people are organized

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and disciplined narcissistic people are entitled and lack empathy like we're not diagnosing we're describing sure

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no that's uh that's very interesting yeah because you would have that perspective that

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if you're speaking with somebody about a narcissist I just think I just think about when

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I hear let's just say for an example my wife complaining about somebody and she

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complains to me about that person all I'm just getting one side of the story right I'm not getting the I'm not

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getting the other person's perspective of the situation or the conversation or whatever it is so if you've got somebody in front of you

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who's got a problem with the narcissist in their lives you're only getting one side of the story from from that person

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and we would naturally maybe we would say things and emphasize things and

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exaggerate things to make the situation seem um maybe grander than it is or

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definitely make ourselves feel more like the victim have you experienced that um well you know what's interesting is

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that narcissists true nurses to abuse survivors tend to do the opposite oh

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so they will come in and they will be laying out these awful things The

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Narcissist has said or how they grew up in childhood and the things that their narcissistic parent has done to them or

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how they've treated them and they will not recognize how abusive it is

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so a lot of actually initially it's pointing out like me pointing out to

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them how did that impact you because nurses to abuse survivors are often making excuses justifications

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rationalizations they're saying it's not that bad I'm sure it's just me can you help me like the people who are coming

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to therapy are saying I'm anxious I think I have anxiety I think I'm

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depressed I'm always ruminating I I'm I'm isolating like what's wrong with me

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so they're usually not you know really talking bad a bad quote like talking bad

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about the other person they're more saying why can't I make this relationship work

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interesting so you end up defending the behaviors and actions and abuse that

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comes from that other person right and that's exactly what's so Insidious about narcissistic abuse is

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that it happens so subtly you think the problems or the symptoms you're experiencing are you instead of what's

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happening to you you think you're the problem sorry yeah you think the problem is so interesting

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how um what's the psychological kind of phenomenon going on there because you'd

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obviously be a starting point in a relationship and I guess the narcissism starts coming from day one I guess but

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unbeknown to that other individual involved there might not be a they might not have experienced a narcissist before

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or that type of Tendencies or behaviors and especially when you're meeting somebody for the first time you want to

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make good Impressions you want to be kind of um um yeah you want to make make a good impression of yourself so you're maybe

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not as authentic as you maybe would be in like a maybe a longer term relationship but what's the

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what's the phenomena behind people defending the people causing them the most abuse and causing them stress and

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depression and anxiety and leading them to the point of seeking help

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well let's take a wide angle view of this and look at the narcissistic cycle of abuse so nurses exactly love abuse is

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idealize devalue discard Hoover so to break that down a little bit more

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like you said when you initially meet someone let's just say for ease of conversation it's a romantic partner so

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you've just met someone people often describe meeting a narcissist as a partner as the you know

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the best thing that's ever happened to them they're swept off their feet narcissists do something called love

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bombing that's also part of that idealized phase they they narcissists

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learn about you they learn about your your insecurities your vulnerabilities your hopes your dreams and it tends to

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develop quite quickly the relationships usually intense you move in together quite quickly say I love you quite

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quickly you're making plans together lots of future faking that's another artistic term like talking about plans

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talking about our future together talking about what we're going to build what our kids are going to do like where we're going to move where we're going to

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travel so you're in like you were in this relationship you're with this person before you've really had the time

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to know them before you've had enough time to see do they really follow through what do they do with stress like

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are they really a person of Integrity narcissists are really good at the outer

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game the charm the Charisma the getting you in the selling you this grandiose

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version of themselves that they want to think that they are so by the time a narcissist starts

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gaslighting you so that's where they start making you question your reality or sanity I know that's a big word we

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can break down but they but by the time they start criticizing you devaluing you

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um being inconsistent being more distant kind of blaming you for things you have

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this version of them that's charming and fun and you've built this idea of life

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with them or maybe you've already moved in with them like so you're constantly trying to make sense of what you think

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is this new person with who you thought they were in the beginning

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interesting so you have every reason to start thinking

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what happened I must have like did I did I do something to offend them maybe I

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like lost their interest maybe we need to hang out more maybe I need to be more attentive like and you start trying to

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be like what can I do and how can I help and how can we make this better and Love Languages and communicate better and all

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the things and the narcissist just keeps moving the carrot so you end up feeling

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like I can't make this work what's wrong with me we were so great in the beginning

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I must need you know to do something that's fascinating I think the idea that

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the um in that beginning that's the beginning of that relationship when everything you're basically being told

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everything you kind of want to hear um and the the emotions wrapped around

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with that and the experience and your mind and your body starts to um create an association with this

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person with feeling amazing and then when that completely changes there's all you're always you're always going to be

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connected to that initial experience and you're always going to be probably chasing that like

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dream first few months or whatever that might be for somebody or for a couple of people and the brain and the body

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doesn't really forget that um emotional connection to it so I'm sure people are just continuing trying

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to chase that and as you say in your wonderful examples people are thinking what can I do what did I you know what

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can I do to change this what did I do to cause this and you people internalize it as their own fault rather than actually

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sitting back and looking at the relationship at a whole and actually having the idea that maybe I'm with somebody who is a narcissist or somebody

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that um wasn't being honest with me in the beginning but I suppose we don't want to

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believe that's the truth because then we have then we're admitting to have been

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gamed foreign yeah I mean imagine

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how much pressure that would be um for someone to to come to terms with

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that like let's say you you are married to this person like I said relationships

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tend to go quite quickly and let's say that you know you're married to someone and they're

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very critical of you and they're always blaming you or they're putting you down or

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um they're belittling you in some way we feel very uncomfortable with that

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with that disparity like you expect to be able to give and receive love from your partner but in reality it's you

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know the relationship's quite tense it's full of criticisms and manipulations and

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put Downs and when we have that disconnect between what we expect in our reality we

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experience cognitive dissonance and that's that anxiety when reality and our

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expectations aren't matching up and so we will try to alleviate our anxiety by

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justifying defending rationalizing saying things like well he doesn't really mean it or she just had a

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stressful day or she said you know once we get past the holidays or once the kids you know get to college or whatever

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this thing is like once we get through the stressful period things are going to get better

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and so you have a lot of buy-in to want to believe that this person is who you hoped that they could be or were

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I'm in the research and there's obviously must be extensive research on on the personality

15:37

traits within a narcissist a narcissists aware of their narcissism

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one of the traits of being highly narcissistic is that you lack self-reflection so that makes that's why

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dealing with narcissists is so challenging because you're often the only one in the relationship who is willing to self-reflect

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who is willing to step back and go oh maybe I shouldn't have said it that way or oh yeah I could see how they would

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have taken that the wrong way you're the only one doing that and the narcissist is more than willing

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to let you be the person who takes all the blame so if a narcissist is not aware of their narcissistic Tendencies and behaviors

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and that the damage that cause causes are they are they to blame for their

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behaviors so here's what I have to say to that I don't use I don't like I don't like the

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word blame but that's the only way it came out right no I get what you mean yeah

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how would they know what they're supposed to lie about if they didn't know who they should be

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so when they come and make things up to you like that love bombing phase that whole thing that they're doing and then they start kind of getting

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annoyed with you and disgusted with your emotions and start belittling you and you feel like you're walking on

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eggshells because you never want to upset them like they know whenever they

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let's say you've had an argument and they've criticized you

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and then maybe you set a boundary and then they decide you know what actually

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I want to keep this relationship because I like how it looks for me I don't really like what this is bringing up then the narcissist will come and like

17:26

buy you flowers or say sorry or say the things that you wanted to hear because that's another reason people often stay

17:31

they think oh they get it now because they're able to repeat back what they know they should be doing but they

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don't have the the kind of stuff that makes that you

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need to make a relationship work like Integrity consistency faithfulness

17:50

um they're very novelty seeking they they always default back to what I want

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what I need what's important to me so they can kind of keep it together sometimes for a little bit but if

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they've had a stressful day and their supply is low like they're not getting the admiration validation attention that

18:06

they want then they're going to start lashing out at you again

18:13

yeah I mean that makes a lot of sense I think so many people can recognize somebody in their life or in

18:20

their past life whether they've had a narcissist close to them I guess or that's actually

18:26

a family member or um or a friend or something is there a um a typical

18:32

pathway that leads to somebody becoming a narcissist I assume you're not born a

18:37

narcissist um I'm open to being wrong on that but I assuming you're not but is there a

18:42

common pathway that leads somebody to have those types of personalities traits you're right yeah you're not born

18:50

narcissistic there is a your temperament is like the biological

18:55

part of your personality whether you're difficult to sue they're easy to soothe whether you tend to be agreeable or

19:02

disagreeable narcissists do tend to be more difficult to soothe prone to feeling more stressed

19:10

um and and just kind of antagonistic like in their temperament but how

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they're formed is definitely that mix of nature nurture social like all of it

19:21

they tend to grow up in environments that are both overindulging and under-indulging so these environments

19:28

are over indulging in the sense of maybe there's a focus on achievement status

19:33

goals money Prestige what things look like maybe the family doesn't even

19:38

intend to do that like but maybe there's just a focus on achievement and

19:44

performance and there's an under Indulgence in empathy in emotional

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regulation in relationships and how you feel and being

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able to be a giving humble person so there's like this lack of development of

20:03

your internal world and caring about other people and then it over emphasis on basically all that matters is how

20:10

things look and so that mix of all of that together

20:15

yeah I mean obviously it's quite complex if you were to look back through like a narcissist's journey from birth and

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their parents and their schooling Etc very complex process but yeah I'm just

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thinking about like we don't obviously I've got two young kids I don't um ly

20:34

parent them to avoid them being narcissists but I also well let me reverse this because this isn't not

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exactly true most parents don't have a particular parenting style so they have

20:47

an outcome personality wise for their kids right I think they should like for

20:52

me with my kids I just want my kids to be happy and kind that's it everything

20:57

else will just like flow from there but I I've not really also had the thought of like oh I don't want my kids to grow

21:03

up to be a narcissist like how do I parent them to avoid that you know like yeah I think most parents should have

21:09

some sort of like plan of like how they how do they want their children to be and it's not about like forcing them to

21:16

be kind and happy all the time you do it through your own example and all of the

21:21

things that come with being a parent in the exposure to that but um yeah it's just interesting that we don't

21:29

have that type of a particular parenting plan or maybe we should be thinking about that I don't know right yeah and

21:36

the two right I mean that's a really big question how do how do I make sure my kid or do my best to make sure my kid's

21:42

not a narcissist like that's a big question but the two things I would say people would need to focus on is empathy

21:49

and boundaries if you can teach your kid empathy which means not only caring about others

21:56

and recognizing that how they behave impacts other people but within that teaching them to recognize their own

22:02

emotions to recognize when they are feeling sad or angry learning how to

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regulate themselves and you teach them boundaries you teach them respect of their boundaries and

22:15

other people's boundaries then those two things are really going to be helpful to those are kind of like the

22:21

anti-narcissist parent toolbox so if you had to pick two things to focus on that's what I would tell people to focus

22:26

on cool yeah I think about my own kids and I think about um

22:32

everyone's potential to become narcissistic in like maybe like a short term like you know like maybe as a

22:39

defense mechanism or as a safety mechanism or perhaps when you hit your 20s but obviously when we see kids go

22:44

from zero to like 18 they go through very different dynamics of um of personalities right like my my

22:51

two-year-old used to laugh when like someone would hurt themselves so we're like oh my gosh she's a psychopath and

22:57

that's pain he loves seeing people in pain right so we're thinking oh my gosh we've got this psycho on our hands but

23:03

he doesn't have any idea about like what the hitting is or the pain is or whatever like that or Myra his him

23:08

watching me do it you know it's it's just it's silly he's two years old right but um there must be different stages in

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within lives where we have become significantly more selfish like I just

23:21

think of like 16 17 year old boys primarily that I've got in my life I

23:26

like them some of the most like selfish people that I've ever met right and there is a

23:34

and I'll I'll hesitate to call it narcissism because then I think we get into this debate of well then is everyone a little bit narcissistic not

23:41

really I mean if an introvert goes out on a Friday night they didn't just become an extrovert sure they're just an

23:47

introvert who decided to go out so if you have a selfish moment or you're like oh that really wasn't very empathetic

23:53

that doesn't mean you're a narcissist or you go through this period like you said where maybe you're just you're in a

24:00

trauma response and so you're kind of cutting everybody off and you just don't have the capacity for empathy you didn't

24:05

just turn into a narcissist but developmentally that's why we wouldn't really be able to say someone is a

24:10

narcissist until 25 or older because that's really when the brain fully

24:17

developed you really start to set settle into your personality so yeah the

24:22

teenage years and all of that it's more developmentally appropriate to see some of those more selfish behaviors if

24:28

they're still like that at 28 32 40 then we have a problem okay

24:34

what's the um most common narcissistic relationship

24:40

dynamic like parent partner where yeah exactly

24:45

because I was just thinking about that I've I've experienced in my life just having you know being involved with uh

24:52

like I've got two young I've got two young kids and now I'm like I have you know go to these parties I'm at the park

24:57

so I'm seeing parents with their young kids parents with their older kids and I I see engagements with uh parents and

25:05

then maybe older kids where there's not a lot of empathy there there's not really any listening going on either way

25:12

and I guess there's got to be somewhere down the line there's got to be parents that are significantly narcissistic

25:18

towards their kids because there is this you know you're not you're not peers as parents and kids you know

25:24

there is a there's a hierarchy that's important there has to be you know you're you're teaching there that's very important to both parties to recognize

25:31

that but I think some parents who maybe I don't say can't handle parenting or

25:37

struggle in moments when they've just got no resources to deal with whining

25:42

crazy children where they will put their foot down and step on this hierarchy

25:47

Dynamic Full Throttle which will then turn into like you know narcissism and

25:53

over and over and over a while that will build and build and build and that's like a narcissistic relationship rather

25:59

than that person being a narcissist in their whole life do you know what I mean

26:04

um yeah and in that situation I mean if if we're only seeing if this person is

26:11

functioning pretty well outside of their parent child interaction like they

26:17

they're doing well at work they show up for friends like they're doing other things then I would say that is more of

26:23

an example of just needing to deal with stress tolerance like just not you know not having a good

26:30

grasp of stress and noticing your triggers noticing when it's building up noticing when you need to walk away so

26:37

you need to develop some stress management and coping skills strategies I wouldn't say though that that's

26:44

narcissistic because if we're going to say narcissistic then we would see this person interacting in a narcissistic way

26:50

in virtually every area of their life yeah that's a that's a key part of their personality and just so I'm clear like

26:56

being a narcissist has very kind of like strict criteria along with it along the

27:02

spectrum of of um severity I guess right we would expect to see these

27:08

patterns of superficiality grandiosity entitlement interpersonal exploitativeness consistently over time

27:14

and in most of your relationships so it's not going to be an isolated incident this will be something that you

27:21

know pretty much is is apparent in every area of your life so in your practice in your experience

27:27

working with working with patients is there a more common relationship Dynamic

27:33

whether that's a parent and a kid or a man and a woman woman and a man like what does that look like

27:40

I'm an interesting question and I I don't know exactly if there are even

27:45

statistics on that I think most of the research has been focused on what is the Dynamics look

27:52

like like what are the patterns within narcissistic abuse honestly it's not as researched as you would think narcissism

27:57

narcissistic personality disorder is one of the least researched personality disorders even though it's inflated how

28:04

much it's talked about it's actually not researched that much um but I'll say in my practice I mainly

28:10

work with people who either have had a romantic relationship or a family relationship with a narcissist

28:16

yeah I think in my experience especially in my 20s I think there was more narcissistic men abusing women and then

28:23

I've actually seen more in my 30s narcissistic women um

28:28

and and they're men that are really really struggling with it so it's obviously not like one way it can come

28:34

in different it's probably why the research is so so weak on it because it's super super complex right and it's

28:40

like and also said before it's like you you as a narcissist you're not really aware of your narcissism so

28:47

you're not going to like go and see a doctor about it and get it researched no it's not really going to happen right

28:54

right no it's not and so that does that does make it difficult um the other point I was going to make

29:00

about why narcissists how do they know what they're doing is because they don't always treat you poorly they know when

29:08

to turn on the charm like when you're in front of other people and then behind closed doors and at home

29:13

like they're degrading you or they're attacking what you said or saying how could you make me look like that like

29:19

that was so stupid what you said but they don't say that in front of people that will call them out

29:24

or in front of your family or if they're in an environment where they want to look good

29:30

and so that too lets you know that okay there is some level of I know what I'm

29:35

doing is bad I just don't care enough to change it wow wow yeah it's so psychologically it's so

29:42

messed up right so messy yes so many layers so many layers can you can you tell me what a

29:49

trauma bond is please um another buzzword for sure so the first thing I like to say about a trauma

29:55

bond is it's not an addiction because we hear that a lot we talk about people

30:02

often describe it like I feel addicted to this person and we can talk about why that is but you're not addicted to them

30:09

you are stuck in a pattern of safety seeking and so I'll give you three

30:15

reasons of why a narcissistic relationship in particular is a

30:21

good relationship for a trauma bond to develop and that's basically when you become attached to someone who also

30:26

hurts you okay so it's not that you want the abuse you want the pain to stop

30:33

and you love this person let's say they're your partner they're your mom they're your dad they're your sister they're your longtime friend

30:39

you don't want the abuse but you want that attachment you want the relationship

30:45

and so you keep coming back like you don't want to be hurt but you want to

30:52

feel left and so you almost have to like go back to that person and this is where people get stuck in this pattern of trying to

30:58

make it work let me just try to approach them this way maybe they were having a bad day let me try this other

31:04

communication strategy let me all the different strategies that we hear about and there's

31:09

not a little amount of information out there about what you should do to make your relationship work

31:14

people in narcissistic relationships though it's often very one-sided so these people are just trying strategy

31:21

after strategy after strategy to make this relationship work with this person and it never can work so you end up

31:27

feeling like it's me and I'm the problem and although you are doing something good you are seeking to improve the

31:34

relationship you're actually strengthening the trauma Bond though when you do that because

31:40

in your body you want to have that attachment and sometimes you do have a

31:46

good day with this person like it's not all bad maybe you have a phone call with your narcissistic mom and she was having

31:53

a good day and so you had a really good conversation and you think okay it's okay like I don't have to cut my mom off

31:58

like I'm sure she really does care she's probably just been really stressed so you're like okay it's fine you have

32:04

that kind of settling in your body and then you call her and the next day or the next week and she's completely

32:11

criticizing you blaming you triangulating you gaslighting you telling you how you feel isn't right and

32:18

just criticizing you and you leave that conversation feeling not enough and you feel awful and then you think what

32:23

happened we had such a good week last week let me rack my brain trying to figure out like what did I do and what was

32:30

different maybe she needs more encouragement I'll send her a card or you know you'll call her more whatever

32:35

it is and so you can see how you get stuck like going back to this person trying to make work trying to make it

32:41

work but when you do that it's like you just go further and further down that trauma bonded hole

32:48

yeah I mean you mentioned family there and I feel like we spoke we spend quite

32:55

a lot about like um like relationships with partners when I guess that somebody who's been

33:01

with a narcissist for a long period of time and maybe works with you and they first of all recognize that they are

33:06

with a narcissist and this person maybe doesn't have their best interests at heart they can they can break up with that person how do you how do you deal

33:13

with that when that's your mum or your dad right like I suppose there are situations where you just you just have

33:19

to kind of like break the relationship because it's so toxic towards you and you you're doing everything you possibly

33:25

can but at the end of the day if somebody doesn't want to change and

33:30

develop that relationship to be healthier especially if it's like a pure narcissist like can can that individual

33:36

actually change to the point where they can completely change their 20 30 40 50

33:42

years of being on this planet where they have developed these personality traits that leads them to be this way and relationships can can people reverse

33:49

that type of a thing I wouldn't expect it and I wouldn't count on it

33:55

if if this person if you've grown up with them like let's just say the narcissist is your mom or dad or sibling

34:03

like insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results like we've kind of

34:08

might have heard that quote before yeah and that's how you end up feeling in these relationships they've been this way since you were a child maybe you're

34:15

in your 20s 30s 40s and you're just now seeing it or recognizing it or accepting it don't expect that they're going to

34:22

change and that's why this is a very highly personal journey and there is no right or wrong

34:28

some people do choose to go no contact like they just cut cut off essentially

34:33

from their family more people find ways to stay in that

34:39

relationship but increase their own feelings of safety and that can be done through things like

34:46

boundaries for example you can call someone let's say you know

34:52

you want to call your mom you want to check in with her but as soon as she starts

34:58

criticizing you trying to gossip with you about your sibling you kind of have

35:03

a time limit where you're like okay mom so good to check in with you um I gotta go like I gotta take this call or something else is coming

35:10

you start to manage the way you interact with them

35:16

yeah yeah that's that's really good advice and I just think about I've just got people in my life who I know that

35:22

are maybe chasing a relationship with their parents where they their parent is

35:27

clearly a narcissist but they're chasing maybe this childhood dream that I think

35:32

might not be real because that we obviously experience the world we've got very different lenses when we're children with our parents you know where

35:40

we might have been psychologically or even physically abused for 95 of a relationship but when we turn into

35:46

adults and we have those um very vague memories of being a child we will

35:52

probably remember happier moments I guess and they will get Amplified and

35:59

then we check them within our adulthood were chasing those types of things with with the same people I guess and that

36:06

can be super super challenging as an adult because what we what we actually remember from

36:12

our childhood and those memories with our parents using the safety mechanisms that our brain will use will probably sugarcoat

36:19

experiences that were negative and therefore we're chasing something that was never there

36:25

such an important point and it's where a lot of my clients start is they notice

36:32

they're having symptoms like they're they notice that they're caught in people pleasing and they kind of hate

36:38

that about themselves and they don't understand where it came from or why they're like that and that's where we often have to start

36:45

is like deconstructing childhood and what it was like for you because a lot

36:52

of people will just gloss over their childhood and say oh my childhood was fine like we had we

36:58

had some ups and downs but they haven't really been honest with themselves and

37:03

for good reason like going back to that we all have a biological need to attach you can't

37:10

really allow yourself to see as a child that your parent is an abuser or that

37:17

they're you know neglecting you in some way or that they're really the problem here like that doesn't feel safe it

37:24

doesn't even feel like an option if if this parent isn't who you think

37:29

they are then you don't feel safe it's like

37:34

who's going to take care of me it's kind of like that underlying question so when you're an adult you finally have this

37:41

space maybe you're in a safer relationship or you're not depending on your parents so much so you can have

37:48

those hard conversations and you can say well really though was my parent the best for me like how did those things

37:54

impact me and that can be really painful but that's also the only way to start healing that

38:01

is it common that a narcissist will raise narcissists

38:09

so one of two things they will either raise a narcissist or they or they will

38:14

raise a very anxious adult okay it's usually one of the two

38:19

obviously narcissistic parents can raise narcissistic kids if they you know dote

38:25

on them to kind of tell them they're the best and transfer to them their entitled mindset you can kind of see how that

38:31

would happen or if you have a highly sensitive child or a more naturally

38:36

agreeable child that child will probably become a highly anxious people pleaser codependent

38:42

behaviors type of adult because that child is going to learn very early on okay everything revolves around

38:48

narcissistic parent so the better I get at knowing what they need giving it to them the safer I feel

38:54

the calmer it is in the house the less conflict there is and so you're actually being rewarded

39:01

for people pleasing and so growing up in adult relationships

39:06

you're most familiar with that that's what feels in a way safer for you because it's what you're used to

39:14

and are there any statistics around like how many narcissists are in the in like

39:19

America like what percentage what percentage of Americans are narcissists pure narcissists

39:26

so lifetime prevalence rates of NPD which is again the disorder diagnosable

39:32

disorder is about six percent in the U.S that's a lot it's a it is a lot it's

39:39

um so if you just like take that based on US population right now it's about 20 million yeah it's like 18 million that's

39:46

insane yeah that's crazy and of course we're talking about NPD yeah and you don't have to be diagnosed

39:53

with NPD to be highly narcissistic or to cause significant damage

39:58

yeah that makes a lot of sense yeah uh something that I'll I'll talk about is like if we just assume that

40:05

those 18 19 whatever 20 million narcissists affect neck five other people throughout their

40:11

lifetime like the nurses could use five other people then you've got 99 million or so narcissistic abuse survivors in

40:18

the U.S alone so when we say it's affecting literally millions and millions of people over the

40:24

world like it's not being over dramatic this is an epidemic

40:29

and it's getting you know more attention thankfully now people are kind of

40:34

understanding it more but at this point we're also fighting the narcissism as a buzzword and then people want to shut it

40:40

down because they're like oh you're talking about narcissism like everyone's a narcissist these days and that's so

40:46

discouraging it really Waters down the word and the term for people who really are being abused

40:53

yeah and that's the real significance here is those individuals that do suffer

41:00

for their lives in term for comportions of their lives and they are basically tricked and fooled into

41:07

um into this whole pattern and yeah it's absolutely devastating for those people because it's so difficult to pick up the pieces of that when you are spending

41:14

your whole life blaming yourself for maybe like a failed relationship and

41:20

that's yeah that's devastating and a lot of people do end up blaming

41:26

themselves for these for the LA for these relationships that that don't last your end

41:33

yeah and then you know if you're in a relationship for 20 30 years with kids and a failed marriage you know like picking the pieces up from that is very

41:39

very difficult and then you've got kids who have been exposed to Pure narcissism for a long long periods of time and

41:45

those personalities are pretty much kind of set in yeah as you say an epidemic it's absolutely devastating

41:52

um I have a question for you um is there a particular kind of person

41:59

that often becomes the victim of a narcissist because we've spoken about

42:04

the personality trait of a narcissist but are there particular personality traits of the victim

42:11

well we've kind of been dancing around it but narcissists do tend to attract

42:16

people who are highly agreeable I don't know if a tract is necessarily the right word but narcissists usually end up with

42:22

people who are highly agreeable because well narcissists might be initially

42:28

attracted to other narcissists if they're both like getting something from it like they're very high status or they

42:33

look good being with each other they're very attractive or something like that but think about what a narcissist is they're they're very antagonistic

42:40

they're highly disagreeable they're quite selfish who's going to put up with that long term another narcissist is

42:46

probably going to get annoyed with that and so the more agreeable people are the ones who will be willing to self-reflect

42:53

and try to make this work and try to give Grace and try to give understanding

42:59

um so empaths people who are highly sensitive people who are highly

43:04

agreeable they tend to be with narcissists introverts are more likely

43:10

um well I'll say that another way empaths are more likely to be introverts so in a

43:16

way introverts can be more susceptible to it as well and in general just certain patterns

43:23

that many introverts and impasse relate to like overthinking being easily guilted having a Compassionate Heart

43:30

caring about other people's feelings those kinds of things are actually good things but they you do

43:39

have to be aware and protect them from narcissists yeah I think about my my relationship

43:46

with my wife which is just amazing she's such a beautiful wonderful empathetic person and I think I am as well but I just

43:52

think about the dynamic of like a introverted empath and a narcissist like

43:59

it sounds it sounds completely chaotic but it it technically kind of works in

44:05

the in the in the benefit of the narcissist right yeah it's the perfect relationship for a narcissist obviously

44:11

devastating for the other person involved but um it's it's just so hard to wrap my head around that that

44:16

actually working but it works well yeah to your point yeah it works for for the narcissist and highly

44:24

agreeable people highly sensitive people are very averse to conflict and in a

44:30

narcissistic relationship narcissists you live in chaos I mean it's just and

44:35

so you're always just chasing your tail trying to put out fire after fire and

44:41

that like we talked about strengthens the trauma Bond of you just keep trying to make things

44:47

better and again every day isn't bad like there was a love bombing phase and even within the

44:53

relationship with through the months or years or however long you're with this person it kind of Cycles through there's

44:58

good days and bad days just like there's sunny days and rainy days because sometimes the narcissist is

45:04

they can be quite Charming they can be really fun like you can have a great time with them or you might have similar

45:09

interests and so part of you really likes this person but then the other part of you hates the chaos but you don't know how

45:16

to make that stop so you just get stuck on this Ferris wheel of keep trying to

45:21

make things work and because you're an agreeable person that feels pretty normal like it feels familiar to do

45:28

yeah and I guess when you do have those good days and those bad days you could probably relate that to just being in a

45:34

relationship like oh you know everyone always right because everyone has and then you you normalize it I guess you

45:40

maybe don't see the the um the real negative sides of that and how it's probably not how I most other

45:47

relationships are exactly the relationship myths that are

45:52

out there like every relationship has ups and downs marriage is hard work like it takes patience

45:59

um everyone deserves a second chance to an extent those are true okay no relationship is perfect everyone has ups

46:06

and downs but the kind of ups and downs in healthy relationships you know it can be like life transitions

46:13

it can be genuine stressors that are very difficult it's not the kind of ups and downs we're

46:20

talking about narcissistic relationships it's not that someone is criticizing you on a daily basis is and

46:27

being antagonistic toward you is is gaslighting you to the point at which you don't even know who you are anymore

46:33

and you feel like you lose yourself the kinds of you know if we could give

46:39

it a weight like for healthy relationships you can have disagreements you can have arguments you still know

46:44

you love each other like you you still have um you know other good parts of your relationship

46:51

with a narcissist there is a cycle of abuse that's happening so it's very different

46:58

yeah yeah I I totally get what you're saying that I just imagine that the ups

47:03

and downs that I have in my marriage are more like the Downs are like a small puddle and they are okay are like a nice

47:09

fence and a in a farm yard but the ups and downs for a narcissistic

47:15

relationships are like chasms and mountains right right the dish is so so stressful

47:22

exactly yeah that and that people often don't understand what you're going through because the

47:29

narcissist may be really a great provider or they're successful at work or they have a great image maybe they

47:35

volunteer for the church or other local community thing and so on the outside they look great and they you look like a

47:42

great couple your family is well respected lots of narcissists have

47:48

you know they're they're doctors they're teachers they're lawyers they either make a lot of money and they have

47:55

Prestige or they're in these very caring roles like being a teacher or a nurse or something so from the outside people

48:01

think you have a great relationship or you have a great family like why what do you mean you can't get along with this

48:08

person so you end up thinking again what is wrong with me everyone loves them everyone loves my mom or dad everyone

48:14

thinks my partner is great why do I feel so bad in this relationship why can't I

48:20

make this work yeah it's so wild you said the example of like a narcissist when you know you with your partner and

48:27

out with friends and they're super fun and outgoing and such a great person and then you get home and behind closed

48:33

doors there's all this abuse that's going on and if you were the victim trying to describe that to your friends who was at the same party you'd be like

48:40

what are you talking about like this person he's great like they're wonderful like they're so funny and outgoing and

48:46

that victim might actually question the abuse that's going on like on my relay

48:52

is this you know is this normal yeah it's such a um is such a

48:58

such a tough thing to kind of put my head into as that as that victim when

49:03

that the whole body in mind is probably screaming get out get out get out red for red flags fire all over the place

49:10

but the the power of this narcissist is so so strong one-on-one with that

49:18

individual behind closed doors but also like out there in the real world with other people who can have these these

49:24

realities and perspectives of this person unbelievably challenging mm-hmm yeah and so you don't feel safe

49:31

to talk about your you know the narcissistic parent or partner with other people because you either don't

49:39

feel like they're not going to believe you or you're going to look like a bad person and you feel bad for even bringing this up and like you said yeah

49:46

you get feedback from others that they seem so nice I'm sure they didn't mean it or have you tried talking to them about it like which is the worst you

49:53

can't talk to a narcissist about your real feelings and then you get all this awful advice well-meaning advice but

49:58

awful advice for a narcissistic relationships and yeah you're deeper and deeper down

50:04

that abusive whole let's um let's finish up and talk about post-traumatic growth

50:11

um I think that's the more positive um topic that we can kind of catch up on so

50:16

why don't you explain a little bit about what that is yes so when you go through something

50:23

traumatic you really have two options post-traumatic stress post-traumatic

50:29

growth I don't know anyone who doesn't first go through the post-traumatic stress symptoms before getting to the

50:34

growth but some people kind of stay in post-traumatic stress those are things like rumination

50:42

changes in your sleep eating feeling hyper Vigilant all the time feeling

50:47

depressed isolated I'm kind of more familiar with PTSD kind of symptoms like

50:52

feeling on edge keyed up all of that post-traumatic growth though is the positive change that can actually come

50:58

after adversity or after traumatic events and narcissistic abuse can

51:03

definitely be one of those traumatic events it really shakes you to your core

51:09

it makes you question and reevaluate everything you thought you knew about life love relationships it makes you

51:15

question your deeply held convictions and beliefs like everyone deserves a second chance or anything you know can

51:22

work if you try hard enough and we often believe that until those beliefs hit a wall and for most of us or

51:29

for a lot of us narcissists are that wall and so you start to reevaluate everything you thought you you knew I

51:37

really break down in my book the insights and practical strategies

51:42

for how to experience more post-traumatic growth after these relationships but just touching on some

51:49

of them it's I find that a lot of survivors

51:54

don't feel that they're very resilient they often feel quite hopeless hopeless

52:00

they feel that maybe they did something wrong or they are bad and that's why this happened they really lose their

52:07

sense of self and what I really want survivors to get and

52:13

to understand is how much they've been through and that they get to decide what they

52:20

will make these experiences mean about them like you get to decide whether you make

52:26

this mean I was a you know narcissist picked me and and they abused me because

52:32

I'm so weak and pathetic and I couldn't stand up for myself and that's why this happened

52:37

or you can choose to see it and realize that I was I went through this because

52:43

of my good qualities like yeah I need to learn boundaries but it's because I'm so kind and empathetic and compassionate

52:49

like these are good things the narcissist manipulated them but that's on the

52:55

narcissist not on you so post-traumatic growth is really about noticing the ways you have grown

53:01

noticing your resilience and your strength and how much you have went through and

53:08

how much you're doing to still heal from this do most people who go into that

53:14

post-traumatic growth and most people working with somebody like you

53:20

well because I would think this would be very tricky to have those realizations

53:27

on your own unless you are into like a podcast where you're talking about these

53:32

sorts of things or you watch a movie or something about this type of a thing like it's very very difficult to because

53:39

the PTSD that that that trauma um and the feelings and the Motions that

53:45

come with that they can end up being quite addicting and they can become a big part of your personality and you

53:52

know for a lot of people they're like dis-ease or their pathology or their psychological State ends up becoming a

53:58

huge part of their personality and who they are and without that who who am I so it can be quite a thing to to grasp

54:06

onto but obviously people people want to heal people want to become um they want they want to change from those

54:12

types of Tendencies and they want to evolve and they want to become in a relationship where they're um their kindness and their empathy and

54:19

all those positive things are flourish and they're respected and understood and that can grow but obviously that growth

54:28

has to come so what you know there's some

54:33

if there's some other steps other than working with a professional like you that can people can step into

54:41

well you bring up a really important point that people do end up feeling like they are their triggers

54:49

and that's one of the healing Minds that shifts that I talk about in my book is triggers validate your reality

54:56

they mean you went through something real because you wouldn't have those triggers if you

55:02

didn't go through something traumatic and so even starting to shift to see okay

55:08

I'm not weak it's not I I'm Not Who The Narcissist said I was

55:16

and these effects like the hyper vigilance the anxiety the depression

55:23

feeling emotionally shut down like that's not you that's what you've been through

55:28

now it is definitely helpful to work with someone who understands narcissistic abuse or at least

55:34

relational trauma or cptsd like complex trauma but there are steps you could be

55:40

doing there is a lot of information out there now about narcissistic abuse and

55:47

even the like finding personally meaningful goals finding people who get

55:54

it like whether that's a support group like it doesn't even have to be if you can't find anybody in person

56:00

I know a lot of people find online spaces and they feel safer there and they can just read like what other

56:05

people have been through and start to recognize oh I'm not crazy and I'm not the only one who's been through

56:10

something like this like that's a really powerful part of post-traumatic growth is finding those

56:17

spaces where you can feel seen and you can feel heard whether you're participating or not even just seeing

56:23

what other people have went through and relating to those experiences can

56:28

start to help you recognize what you've been through and separate you who you

56:34

are from what you've been through yeah I think about we're talking about

56:39

the high numbers of narcissists in the world that also means that there's going to be a high amount of victims of those

56:46

people that you're potentially could connect with and I'm sure there are amazing groups online that support

56:52

people I'm sure there are courses you can do and podcasts you can listen to all these types of things so you can get support in so many different ways um are

56:59

there any off the top of your head are there any um particular groups or podcasts that

57:05

you think people could could benefit from because that's quite an easy thing people can click into

57:12

always recommend Dr Romney Dr Romney is quite well known in the online space and she has a healing group I have a very

57:19

active group especially on Facebook and I have a free newsletter that I send people on

57:26

healing and understanding narcissistic abuse so those are some that come to mind and I you know I really like people

57:33

to find what resonates with them yeah yeah um because I think that's that's part of you learning to trust you is finding

57:40

those spaces that feel safe for you and validate you beautiful yeah I I really

57:46

think that going from that that um PTSD to that growth stage which is obviously

57:51

very important to be able to um digest and eliminate

57:58

that whole part the whole that whole personality that would have grown up inside of you you know to be able to deal with that trauma and rather than

58:05

suppress it and knock it down and maybe layer more on top of it you're able to

58:10

actually process it and go through that and obviously that's gonna it takes work it took serious work to do that type of

58:16

thing I think of any deep rooted psychological change it requires that it

58:21

requires change and change for me is is doing things and thinking things and feeling things

58:27

are unfamiliar and unpredictable and uncommon and stepping into that type of arena is a very very scary for a lot of

58:34

people because it is just that you know you're stepping into something that's that's unfamiliar to you and the brain

58:39

and body don't really like that so much but if you really want to change those kind of previous patterns that have created a journey towards victimhood

58:46

um you know we want new thoughts new feelings and behaviors really

58:52

um grasping hold of that growth process and you spoke brilliantly about um you know

58:58

I experienced this whole situation because I've got all these wonderful personality traits and I was and I was

59:05

just that I was just a victim of a a psychologically I'm not sure what the word is a

59:10

narcissist yeah yeah antagonistic yeah manipulative person

59:17

yeah right exactly and it was just it was kind of just like my my my my unfortunate bad luck that I went for

59:23

that but you know what I'm gonna absolutely learn from this I'm gonna grow and I'm gonna do all these amazing things and I bet you there are some

59:29

phenomenal practitioners out there who are supporting thousands of thousands of people who went through exactly that and

59:35

they're doing what they do now because of their experiences and they don't want other people to experience that as well

59:41

mm-hmm yeah they really are and that's one of the the most healing things that I love

59:47

about working with clients in therapy and coaching is getting to see people's different

59:54

experiences and helping them have those light bulb moments where they realize this is a thing like this has a label

1:00:01

like this is triangulating this is gaslighting you mean that they were manipulating me the whole time and

1:00:07

starting to recognize that this isn't my own fault it's like this isn't because I

1:00:13

was just so silly or stupid or foolish and I should have seen this coming and how did I not know

1:00:18

this is abuse and once we can put that framework around it gives them the space to go oh it's what I've been through

1:00:25

it's not who I am yeah I see correlations with um that this this type of work with um what we

1:00:32

do here at true hope Canada and our Flagship product is called Empower plus it's a broad spectrum micronutrient

1:00:37

formula and we have so much success with people who have have had anxiety for so

1:00:44

for long periods of time people have had depression and what they're doing they're they're providing their body

1:00:50

with the necessary resources to change the way that their brain is functioning

1:00:56

and therefore they're able to have different thoughts different feelings and different behaviors because their

1:01:01

brain is physically changing with these new resources ingredients these building these completely necessary building

1:01:07

blocks to create those new those new neural connections and those new synapses and I see a correlation between

1:01:15

that and changing you know going from a victim to a to a Survivor and then going

1:01:21

through that growth process and then making you stronger and stronger and stronger and once you kind of get a taste of that process

1:01:28

then you only really get stronger and stronger and it's it's a beautiful thing to to I'm sure you've experienced so

1:01:34

many people that have done such amazing work and they're completely new people going through such a traumatic event

1:01:40

grasping it with both hands and and making the worst thing that's ever happened to them turn into the best

1:01:45

thing that's completely transformed their lives and we see the same thing with some of our products here at true

1:01:50

hope Canada and it's uh it's a it's an amazing thing to be involved and be involved with and it's just such a

1:01:56

pleasure to be able to serve people in that way I know that's that's been my hope for my

1:02:03

own experiences like I mean there there's been it's been quite a journey for me like I still have triggers I'm

1:02:09

still healing I always say we're always a work in progress like but I wanted to take what I've been through with

1:02:16

narcissistic abuse and and give it back and be able to help people and give them as you know a platform a person who

1:02:23

understands what they've what they've been through so and I've seen so many of my clients do the same thing like what

1:02:29

you how you can learn and grow from narcissistic abuse like once you really get through the healing and you're kind

1:02:36

of you're past the initial shock of it but you're really starting to make sense of

1:02:42

it like you become such a stronger person because now you know what a narcissist is what toxic behaviors are

1:02:48

like you are so much stronger and more well equipped once you can move past you

1:02:54

know the initial part of healing yeah I think everybody can take take if they

1:02:59

can actively sit back and look at themselves and and maybe find some things that

1:03:05

they're not too happy with that they want to develop and then take that challenge head on to change that to reverse that you know

1:03:11

maybe if I'm a judgmental I used to be a judgmental person in my 20s and I didn't like it it wasn't serving me it was

1:03:17

sucking energy from me so I spent I did a lot of meditation to work through that

1:03:22

and now I I don't step into being judgmental like immediately as like a reaction to a situation it's much more

1:03:29

of a response now and I find it to be useful um but I feel like anybody can do that

1:03:36

type of a practice you know they don't have to be it don't have to be a victim of a narcissist but there are some amazing things that people can do with

1:03:43

uh with change if they've got the right tools and ingredients and motivational motivation around it

1:03:51

yeah absolutely change is possible you just have to take that first step

1:03:56

um tell me about your book um why did you write it who's it for what's it called yeah well luckily I have it right here I

1:04:04

didn't have it in here earlier but um here it is it's called if only I'd known

1:04:09

how to outsmart narcissists set guilt-free boundaries and create unshakable self-worth so I really wrote

1:04:16

this for survivors I wanted to to be very therapeutically sound I based it on like

1:04:23

over 400 stories that I collected from narciss TV survivors there's peer-reviewed articles in there but I

1:04:30

wanted to make it very relatable and practical and helpful for survivors so this is for anyone who thinks you

1:04:36

might be dealing with a narcissist you know for sure you're dealing with a narcissist you you either are still or

1:04:42

you have before and you want to understand how narcissists think you're

1:04:48

tired of wondering and tired of thinking man that doesn't make sense like I don't understand why they do these things or

1:04:54

how they think because it's so radically different from how I think so if you want to understand how narcissists think

1:05:00

how the cycle of abuse works how to set those boundaries even if you are highly sensitive or empathic you want to heal

1:05:07

attachment wounds um relational traumas and you want to experience that post-traumatic growth I

1:05:14

talk about healing mindset shifts you need to make and the most common reasons people get stuck so I really wanted it

1:05:20

to be like this kind of comprehensive guide from start to finish understanding

1:05:26

narcissistic abuse healing yourself and then okay what do I do with everything I've learned and so that's that's kind

1:05:33

of who it's for beautiful beautiful um and I'll make sure that there are links in the show on it so people can

1:05:38

find that and also find your website in your social media Etc and but just to

1:05:43

finish just this is this is the real finish fine the definition to show off but

1:05:49

um we jumped we talked about a question at the beginning of the show and I just wanted to ask you this if you could give

1:05:55

me a couple of points on this that would be wonderful you know what are the red flags that show that you might have a

1:06:01

narcissist in your life um first red flag you're usually aware of

1:06:07

is changes in your thinking you start overthinking a lot things

1:06:12

don't make sense you're very confused you tend to have a lot of self-blame

1:06:17

you're questioning your your kind of replaying scenarios conversations in

1:06:23

your head things aren't exactly making sense you start to experience more guilt like

1:06:30

why can't I ever like why do I have this this issue with this person why can't we ever make

1:06:36

things better or you feel like you're walking on eggshells like you're quite

1:06:41

hyper Vigilant uh quite anxious a lot or you might notice that you're always

1:06:46

people pleasing this person like you give and give and give and nothing is ever enough

1:06:52

and that's something I actually do break down in my book I talk about warning signs that you're being narcissistically

1:06:58

abused and break it down from every angle because you're never responsible for the abuse

1:07:03

that someone you know for someone else abusing you but if you can start to recognize those signs earlier on then

1:07:10

you can protect yourself sooner beautiful I think that's wonderful advice something like somebody that

1:07:16

something that somebody can take right away to actually have a good think about their relationship yes and um apply

1:07:22

right away so I really appreciate that thank you very much but that is it thank you so much Chelsea for coming on to the

1:07:28

show I really appreciate it and I'll make sure that everything that people need to connect with you is going to be available in the show notes but thank

1:07:35

you so much for coming on the show I learned so much I'm super excited to get this out there because as you say

1:07:42

um it's a big topic and we want to make sure that people are getting the right information and not just the kind of the

1:07:47

trendy nonsense so I really appreciate your um your conversation today thank

1:07:52

you so much thank you thank you for having me of course well that is it for this episode of True Hope cast the

1:07:59

official podcast for True hope Canada we'll be back with you next week don't forget to subscribe you can leave us a

1:08:05

review on iTunes and Spotify if you want to but that is it we'll see you soon thank you foreign

1:08:13

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