0:00

When someone builds up their personality, their worldview, their

0:05

relationships around an illness, what happens, do you think psychologically

0:11

when another person like you comes along and proves that recovery is possible?

0:16

It threatens their entire sense of who they are, you know, and it's which is again why I try to be compassionate

0:22

because I remember what that felt like. There was part of me that resisted it, but there was part of me that just

0:28

thought this is who I am and this is my identity and and if you say that it's

0:33

possible to heal, who would I be without this?

0:41

[music]

0:47

Welcome to True Hope Cast, the official podcast of True Hope Canada. My name is Simon Brazier. I am your host and on

0:53

this show we take a deep dive into the real story of mental health both the psychological and physiological sides

0:59

because lasting change happens when the brain and body are supported together. Today's episode is a powerful one. I am

1:06

joined by Michelle Ringer, a bipolar recovery expert, speaker, and advocate

1:11

whose story challenges everything we have been told about what a bipolar diagnosis means and what's actually

1:18

possible on the other side of it. Michelle isn't speaking from theory. She is speaking from lived experience. After

1:24

years of navigating the mental health system, hospitalizations, medications, and the belief that her diagnosis

1:31

defined her future, Michelle discovered a very different path, one rooted in understanding the brain, restoring

1:38

nutritional balance, and reclaiming agency over her health. Today she shares

1:43

her journey from diagnosis to stability, from surviving to thriving, and from feeling broken to understanding that her

1:51

brain wasn't defective. It was depleted, overwhelmed, and asking for support.

1:56

This is a conversation about what bipolar recovery can actually look like, why nutrition and physiology matter in

2:02

mental health, how hope returns when people are given tools and not labels, and why lifelong illnesses doesn't have

2:10

to be the end of the story. At True Hope Cast, we believe mental health conversations should be honest,

2:16

empowering, and grounded in solutions. And this episode delivers that and much more. So whether you are navigating

2:22

bipolar disorder yourself, supporting somebody you love, or simply searching for a more complete understanding of

2:28

mental health, this is an episode you will not want to miss. Today's title is When Recovery Threatens Identity While

2:35

Healing Makes Some People Angry. Enjoy the show. Okay. Hi, Michelle. Welcome

2:40

back to True Hope Cast. How are you? What's going well? I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for

2:46

having me back. I I am still feeling tremendous gratitude for your vice

2:52

president, David, taking the time to be interviewed by me three times. And our interviews went super long because he is

2:58

so filled with like good information. And each time we're like, we're only going to do it for an hour and I think all three episodes are like an hour and

3:05

a half long because we just couldn't. He just keep keeps giving good information and there was no point to stop in it.

3:11

But I'm constantly referring people to those episodes. I'm like, "Have you listened to episodes 70, 71, and 72 of

3:17

my podcast?" Like, go listen to those and then come back and talk to me. [laughter] Yeah. And they are very good and I will

3:23

reference them in the show notes and there's so much great content out there. Yeah. I I I went to um meet Tony and

3:30

David at Tony's property in in the Coupney not so long ago and we were

3:35

going to record a special 30th anniversary podcast and just as I was setting up putting the lights up and the

3:41

cameras and things and they're kind of chatting away and like they're thinking, "Oh yeah, this is probably this could run an hour and you know we'll be done

3:48

ready for dinner." I had to stay an extra night. We ended up three episodes. They were nearly two hours each and it's

3:53

just it's just the way it goes when there's so much content, there's so much emotion, there's so much story, there's

3:58

so much questions that that pop up when you're hearing and listening to this stuff. It's it's quite fascinating.

4:04

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. [laughter] Well, today you and I we're going to be discussing when recovery threatens

4:13

identity and why healing makes some people pretty angry. But before we jump

4:18

into that, for people who don't know who you are and what it is that you do, can you maybe give us a little bit of a

4:23

brief introduction, please? Certainly. I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder back in 1998. Uh it was a month

4:31

before I was graduating from college. And for the next 12 years, I actively

4:36

sought psychiatric treatment. I was convinced that I had a chemical imbalance, that it was a lifelong

4:42

condition, but I was assured that if I just kept taking the medication that

4:47

they would find the right combination of medications and I would be able to live a balanced life and and you know be able

4:55

to to live a a fulfilling life. And that was not the case. In fact, over the next

5:01

decade, I progressively got worse and ended up at a point of complete

5:07

hopelessness. I made multiple attempts on my life. I was hospitalized a number of times. They did electrocomulsive

5:12

therapy on me, which some people call shock treatment. But I I truly had no hope in my life. And but I had an

5:20

experience one day when I was um watching my children play. I had a four-year-old daughter and a one and a

5:25

half-year-old son and they were playing and I had this really clear thought come into my head. If you ever successfully

5:30

end your life, you will ruin your daughter's life. She will believe it was her fault and it will ruin her life. And so from that point on, I just became

5:37

determined to survive. I I thought I didn't think my life had value because I

5:42

had what I believed was a lifelong incurable condition that medication was not helping, but I knew her life had

5:48

value. And so I was willing to just suffer for her. But then about a year and a half later was when a friend of

5:54

mine told me about True Hope. And at that point, I didn't truly understand the difference between medication and

6:01

micronutrients. And I just thought maybe that might help my incurable condition, you know. And so

6:07

even for the first few years after I was taking it, I I didn't understand the difference between them. I just thought

6:12

some people use medications, some people use micronutrients. I thought they were kind of the same thing, just working

6:18

better for one person and the other works better for another. But and I didn't understand that I was actually

6:24

healing. And so over the next decade, I, you know, got micronutrients, got off

6:30

the medication safely and onto the micronutrients. My brain started to heal. And all of a sudden, all the other

6:37

things that I had been trying before that weren't working, like working on mindfulness meditation, you know, going to the therapist and actually working on

6:43

processing and healing trauma. All of those things actually became possible once I got my brain what it needed to

6:48

function in a healthy way. and and then I was going longer and longer and longer

6:54

periods of time without symptoms and I thought I had just found a way to manage what again I still believed was a

7:00

lifelong and curable condition. So I started sharing what I was learning on my blog and then it turned into a

7:06

podcast and then later a book. But as I went through the research to try and help people more effectively, I started

7:11

understanding that my brain was actually healing and that I that bipolar is not a when

7:18

they when you get diagnosed with bipolar, you're not being diagnosed with a chemical imbalance. You're not being diagnosed with an underlying condition.

7:24

All they're doing is observing the symptoms that you have and giving you a label for your symptoms. It's it's not

7:30

an explanation. It's an observation. Right? And once I started understanding that, then I became much more bold in

7:37

what I was sharing with people. I started, you know, a coaching program to try and co, you know, to help coach people through the healing process. I

7:44

started speaking out much more boldly about, you know, the fact that we've been misled about what we're being

7:50

diagnosed with. And and that was when the hate came. I was actually quite

7:55

shocked. Like I was so excited to share this with people. I felt very betrayed when I first started understanding these

8:01

things. I thought, you know, I went to these people trusting them that they were were going to help me. And I felt

8:06

very betrayed. Um, but then I thought, well, that doesn't do any good to just sit and stew in my anger. And so I

8:12

thought, well, I just want to tell everybody. And I was shocked by the push back and the anger that I got.

8:18

Yeah, I'm not surprised by that, to be honest. It's pretty wild. But I I we're gonna we're going to talk about a lot of

8:24

individuals who, you know, [snorts] so many people every single day getting diagnosed with psychological disorders,

8:29

bipolar, depression, anxiety. So there's literally books and books and books on

8:35

these. And I'd love to just like before we step into that conversation because

8:40

we we've had a conversation about you, your journey with true hope, etc., and I'll share that in the show notes, but I

8:45

want to talk more about the identity that people wrap around their their conditions. And if you can step back to,

8:51

you know, when you, you know, when you were younger, when you originally went to see a doctor and a psychiatrist and

8:58

you got put on medications, what was your mindset, do you think your frame of mind as a young person? because

9:06

I'm sure looking at it now it's very obvious that you weren't

9:12

Ephexa deficient, you weren't Prozac deficient, you weren't Zoloft deficient and then taking these is going to like

9:18

fix you. Like I think looking back now, you obviously recognize that, but as a

9:24

you know a person in like your your early 20s whenever wherever you are, a lot of people are very naive to to the

9:30

fact that that that's the case. So, I wonder if you can maybe step back to that mindset because a lot of people who might listen to this or who are

9:37

struggling who do put up their defenses and attack and attack you and attack the natural health industry

9:43

are in a position where their mind just can't see what's right in front of them.

9:49

Yeah. Well, when I was diagnosed, I at the very very very beginning, I was told I had a chemical imbalance,

9:55

right? They said that the chemicals in my in my brain were out of balance and that the medication was similar to a

10:01

diabetic being given insulin and that helped me at the time. Number

10:07

one, it it relieved me of feeling responsible for what was going on. One of the things that was so hard for me

10:13

when I was struggling with the symptoms that led to me going to the psychiatrist was I kept I'm a very proactive person.

10:20

I always have been and and a very goal- driven person. And so I kept buying like

10:26

self-help books. I I remember I remember the day that I went and bought seven habits for highly effective people. I

10:32

was trying to fix myself. I was trying to control these symptoms. I was trying because I didn't recognize them as symptoms or anything. I just thought I

10:39

don't have enough self-control. And so I spent a lot of time working on that and becoming more and more

10:45

discouraged and more and more frustrated and feeling more and more helpless. So when I went to a psychiatrist and I was

10:50

told, "This isn't your fault. you have a che, you know, your brain's broken essentially, like your your brain has a

10:57

chemical imbalance. It's like having diabetes. That felt good to my brain. It felt it felt relieving to me to be told that

11:04

it's not your fault. Yeah. And it's not that you don't have enough self-discipline. You have a broken brain and we're going to fix it with these

11:10

medications. And and it's interesting over the over the first decade as I was going through

11:17

treatment um I became more and more wrapped up in my identity with this

11:23

bipolar because I could see the damage I was doing to with to relationships and it made me

11:29

feel terrible about myself but it helped me to feel less terrible because I thought well I can't help it and the

11:35

psychiatrist would reinforce that. So my psychiatrists would say things like your

11:40

parent your husband and your children just need to understand, you know, we'll help them understand. There was encouragement to do family therapy so

11:45

they could understand my illness and learn how to, you know, support me in my

11:51

illness. And there was one part of me that thought felt relieved by that because I thought, okay, this isn't my

11:57

fault. I'm doing the best I can. You know, I'm taking my medications. I felt like I was doing my part by taking the

12:02

medications, going to the appointments, and that I just needed compassion and understanding from other people.

12:08

But there was a part of my brain that kept thinking, well, it's not my fault, but how is it their fault? Like, I just I could see the damage I was doing, and

12:15

I thought, but okay, but it's not my fault, but it's not my husband's fault, and it's absolutely not my children's

12:20

fault. Like, so there was part of me that resisted that, but there was some relief in this

12:25

idea that I wasn't responsible for these things. And and I would tell people I am

12:31

bipolar. Like that was my identity. That was who I was is I am bipolar was what I used to say to people all the time. And

12:37

it became wrapped up in my identity. Yeah. I've heard people through the years like I am celiac. I am bipolar.

12:45

You know these are very very powerful statements. You know I am. And if that's

12:50

being you know reinforced a million times a day like over and over in your head then it certainly becomes a big

12:56

part of who you are. I I I've never had those conversations with a psychiatrist

13:01

or a doctor when, you know, you're told that you have a chemical imbalance, but then, you know, I'd love to ask like why? What's the root cause of that and

13:08

go back and back and back, but I don't think there would be any solid answers there. And a lot of that chemical

13:14

imbalance with mental illness is getting viciously debunked every day these days. So

13:20

that's certainly a positive, but it takes a long period of time for that to like trickle through into universities

13:26

and into curriculum into and into social understanding and especially we're going up against you know big big money and

13:33

big pharmaceutical companies that you know obviously I think I think anti-depressants and antiscychotic medications are their kind of like bread

13:40

and butter every every year when it comes to revenue. So there's a lot of challenges and you know that's why we're

13:45

having these conversations and if we can you know support and and motivate one

13:50

person with this like this conversation that would be a big positive but I'd love to talk about the backlash that

13:56

that you receive in regards to you know at the end of the day you're sharing your story you're sharing your experience and just like True Hope here

14:02

we just we don't want any other families to go through what the founders have gone through and you want to you know

14:07

not have any other individuals go through what you went through and it it's It's it's all coming from such a

14:13

great source, from such a great place of light. Um, but you've been pretty open about the backlash that you receive for

14:20

talking about natural recovery from bipolar disorder and and when you're attacked online or I don't know, maybe

14:26

even publicly, what do you think people are actually reacting to beneath the

14:31

surface of that? I think there are a number of things. I think number one um

14:39

there is a there's a huge division happening in our societies right now between

14:44

people that you know the trusty experts. So we've been conditioned to believe

14:49

that there are certain people who are authorities in certain areas and that if you don't have those letters behind your

14:56

name, if you haven't received a stamp from the university saying you are now certified as an expert in this area,

15:02

that you shouldn't say anything about it. especially if you're contradicting what the experts are saying, right? And

15:08

so I I and it it's interesting because we're seeing that here in the United States with our the um Kennedy Bobby

15:16

Kennedy with his push back against you know big pharma and you know all of the

15:22

and I I don't want to get into things that are going to get people's backup but I that's that that is the issue

15:27

itself right when when anybody pushes back against these these um institutions

15:34

they are viewed as as other or outside or you know conspiracy theorists or you

15:41

know loonies like there's all these things that people immediately dismiss anything that they're saying because

15:47

because we have been these institutions have become mainstays in our society and our trust in them has become implicit.

15:54

And one of the things that's really fascinating to me, one of the biggest objections that I get recently is um

16:01

people saying how disgusted they are that I'm trying to monetize, you know, I'm out here hawking my book to try, you

16:06

know, trying to sell hope to people and trying to sell my book and trying to make money off of people's suffering.

16:12

And I thought, wait a minute, like you are defending a multibillion dollar

16:17

industry without questioning their motives. And here I am with my little $17 book that

16:24

actually leads people to recovery. You know, I the other day I responded to somebody because they were like, "Shame on you." She went after me pretty

16:30

hardcore and and telling me that it, you know, she was ashamed of me and how dare

16:35

I and how do I sleep at night and stuff and I thought, "Hang on a second. You're defending people who whose entire

16:42

livelihood is dependent on people staying sick. People who are dependent on you staying

16:48

sick." Yeah. You know, when I was when I was in treatment, I had a couple of times when I said to my husband, I said, 'I feel

16:54

like there's a financial incentive to keep me sick. You know, I I was I was in and out of the hospital, which were

17:00

extremely expensive experiences, right? And taking tons of psychotropic medications. At one point, I was on

17:06

seven different psychotropic drugs. I had to go to therapy all the time. I had regular psychiatric visits. It was very,

17:12

very, very expensive. Yeah. And as I was starting to go through the healing process, I was

17:18

shedding all of those things. And now, like, I don't go to therapy anymore. I haven't seen a psychiatrist since 2010.

17:24

I, you know, I don't take medications. All I take is my supplements. That's it. And that's like eating. You know, that's

17:30

one of the things somebody's like, "Well, you have to take supplements for the rest of your life." I said, "Well, you have to eat for the rest of your life, too. You're not going to like buck

17:36

at buying food, right?" And I just know that my brain requires a higher level of micronutrition than what my food can

17:43

provide. So, I give it what it needs, but I don't need any of these other services any longer.

17:48

Yeah. And so, you know, that's that's one of the things that is so fascinating to me

17:54

is the this suspicion that what I'm offering is monetarily motivated,

18:01

whereas this multibillion dollar industry is not financially motivated.

18:07

Yeah, it's a it's a terribly weak argument and the something you said there made me think about rationality

18:14

and clear thinking. You can't you can't have that argument with with with with rational with rational thought. And I

18:21

think for so many people, especially if they have been through

18:27

traumatic experiences, through COVID, through a diagnosis, through disease, people are scared and they're going to

18:33

fight or flight and they can only access certain parts of their brain. And I I compare I try and compare myself

18:40

like when I was 30 and when I was 20 and how I absolutely knew nothing of the world, but I thought had it all figured

18:46

out. Like my brain wasn't fully developed yet. I had not experienced the world enough to really make a full

18:51

assessment of like what's real, what's not. Um, even in like little experiences

18:56

during the day, like am I using my using my rational brain here or am I thinking with anxiety and fear? And so many

19:04

people I'm sure who do listen to your content and have a let's

19:10

say negative angry reaction. I can only have sympathy and empathy for

19:15

that because I'm sure that they've experienced without question trauma in their lives, but they're unable to, you know, take

19:23

that breath, take that pause between listening to what you say and then reacting emotionally

19:29

and yeah, I mean, just the the idea of your $17 book and then the the trillions of dollars that's made of people being

19:36

ill, like you know, your disease is incredibly lucrative, especially like what you just experienced there. And the

19:42

SC that money's going somewhere and well there's also the other piece of that fear thing that you're talking

19:48

about is the symptoms that come from somebody who is struggling with bipolar are very scary. They are.

19:54

And a lot of times when I say that it's possible to heal bipolar and that bipolar is not a valid diagnosis. I I

20:00

genuinely believe this bipolar diagnosis. I I don't even like talking about bipolar disorder. In fact, in my

20:06

group when I coach people through the process, we talk about we do not talk about bipolar disorder. We talk about bipolar symptoms because symptoms are

20:13

information. You can look for the sources of the symptoms and treat the source, right? But a lot of times people interpret that

20:20

as me saying that bipolar symptoms aren't real. And that is not true. I lived with them for years. There's a reason I went to a

20:26

psychiatrist in the first place. There's a reason that I ended up in the hospital. I I understand how scary the

20:32

symptoms can be. And so a lot of the anger that I get from people, you know, people say, "Well, my medication saved

20:38

my life." That might be true in the moment, but why do you have to keep taking it for the rest of your life? You

20:43

know, like it's I I I do I do understand that there are times when these symptoms

20:48

lead to people being a danger to themselves or others. I do understand that these symptoms can cause us to do

20:54

very distressing things. But that doesn't mean that you can't treat and

20:59

heal it. But people are very afraid because there's, you know, like for example, a lot of times people will say

21:05

to me, "My mom had bipolar and you don't understand what you're talking about and you know that your your language is

21:11

going to make people go off their medications and then then they're going to, you know, blow up their lives and and that and so what they're that those

21:17

people are speaking from a place of fear. Yeah. because they have seen the damage that comes from these symptoms and

21:23

there's there's a belief they have because of that fear. There's a belief you have to have the medication and that

21:29

the psychiatric drug companies exploit that fear. They they you know you've got

21:35

to you've got to take your medication. You have to take it or lives you know it saves lives and safe and effective and

21:41

all of this language that's used to convince us that we need these medications to stay safe.

21:46

Yeah. I think a lot of people characterize something like bipolar disorder or

21:52

anxiety or depression in the same characterization as like a broken leg. A broken leg is like a very very like

21:58

objective you have a broken feur, you have a

22:05

broken leg. This is the treatment plan. But when it comes to something like bipolar disorder, which is, you know,

22:10

you're working with a you're working with a clinical evaluation with a obviously a health professional, but

22:15

it's it's it's ticking boxes of symptoms and it's very it's very subjective at

22:20

the end of the day. Um, and a lot of people don't really get that, I don't think. I think it's just,

22:26

you know, this is a this is a disease that we we we know of and you get diagnosed with it and then

22:33

there's a there's a treatment plan and that's um another part of the framework in regards to I'm sick. I go

22:39

to a doctor and this is this is what I have and this is what I do. It it's just

22:45

not as clearcut as that. And again, it's that rational rationale piece. I know incredibly smart people, but and and

22:52

they've they've had things go wrong with their body and they're they go straight

22:57

to they go straight to the doctor, which is, you know, fine thing to absolutely do, but to not question anything and to not like look into it a little bit

23:03

further. Um, it's just I understand because people aren't in that rational

23:08

frame of mind because they're scared that this this thing might be really really dangerous to them. And it's it's

23:14

it's a challenging place to be in without question. And I I I wonder that a lot of people probably think that your

23:24

message is dangerous. Mhm. So I wonder like how do you respond to the idea that hope, agency, and

23:31

non-invasive options are somehow more threatening than lifelong dependency and

23:37

lowered expectations. Yeah. Well, I always invite I have You

23:42

can't talk to somebody when they're an irrational state of mind. And usually when people come after me, they're pretty irrational.

23:48

100%. Um, and I'm not saying that as a condescending thing. It's just true. It triggers it triggers like a fight

23:53

orflight, like you mentioned, a fight orflight response in people and they get very angry and very defensive. And I used to just block

24:00

people because I thought, I don't need that in my feed. But then I thought, well, wait a minute. I I used to be there. I can understand where they are.

24:07

And and I will I will let somebody stay as long as I think that there's hope for

24:12

maybe them being open to the message at some point because a lot of times people are also they're suffering a lot. You

24:19

know, when people come in and they're like, "My medication saved my life if I didn't have my medication." And I always say, "I'm so happy that you found

24:25

something that works for you. I I'm happy that you found something that keeps you healthy and balanced." And

24:30

I've had people say, "Well, there's no balance for bipolar. You can just manage." And I always say, "Are you certain?" because I [laughter]

24:36

like I I try to ask questions for people if there's anybody who's who I feel like might be open to the message because

24:44

this is like years of conditioning that lead to this reg you know usually

24:49

somebody who's in this place of of total acceptance of their disorder and total acceptance of this disease model of of

24:55

illness um and this idea that bipolar is lifelong and incurable our our society

25:02

rewards victim status unfortunately. True. And so people start to identify as a

25:07

victim and and it relieves people of of their need for agency and their responsibility for themselves, but at

25:14

the same time, when you don't if you're when you're not personally responsible, you also don't feel very good about yourself. And so there's there's all of

25:21

these emotions that are wrapped up in this. And and so number one, I I

25:28

actively am working with people on a regular basis that you know in my coaching program and people that I I

25:34

consult with that are that I'm helping through the healing process and that keeps me focused on why I'm doing this

25:40

because number one like I my story I I tell my story all the time when I'm doing speaking engagements and so I'm

25:48

reminding myself of where I came from and how I ended up here, right? I'm actively engaging with the research that

25:54

is freely out there for anybody who wants to to study it themselves. You know, I produce I I provide all the

25:59

research on my on my website that use that I use to go through the healing process. You know, from Bonnie Kaplan

26:05

and Julia Reich's book, The Better Brain, you know, my podcast episodes with David on, you know, how

26:10

micronutrition actually helps the brain. you know, the work from from uh Doc or

26:16

Professor Joanna Monreef on, you know, on how the drugs actually affect your brain and that they're not actually healing an underlying disease. You know,

26:22

all of these things that help me to heal and that I'm that I'm actively using to

26:27

help other people heal help me stay focused on what I'm doing and why I'm doing it so that it when people come after me, I don't I don't get flustered

26:34

or upset or or, you know, want to sit down and be quiet. But I also try to

26:40

work with people who I can who I think might actually

26:46

listen if I'll just be patient with them. You know, I used to get very defensive at the beginning because I

26:51

thought, why are you attacking me? All I'm sharing is all I'm sharing is research. Like you're welcome to go read

26:56

the research yourself, right? Yeah. People don't know your people don't know your backstory like you do. They don't know your history. They don't

27:02

know the sensations that you've experienced and the success that you've had. And for a lot of people, that just seems absolutely impossible. and you

27:08

you're absolutely an impostor in the the scheme of bipolar disorder, but I think

27:14

you take an incredibly um rationale to to those individuals. And I wonder is is

27:21

there a common theme within those individuals who you do work with who do who are open to um talking with you

27:29

further and then jumping into your program because that there must be Yeah, there must be

27:35

some common themes there. Unfortunately, usually it's people who've been on medications for a really long time or

27:41

people right at the beginning of their diagnosis. So th that I don't generally get people like in between.

27:46

Okay. I either get people who've been on medications for years and they're still suffering and they're still not feeling

27:52

like there's any hope and that's when they start going to look and that's how they find me in the first place. Right? So people that have been on medications

27:59

for a long time and the reason I say unfortunately is by then there's been some pretty serious damage from the medications. And so the first the first

28:06

thing we have to do is actually help their brains heal from the effects of the medication before we can even begin

28:11

to work on what caused the symptoms in the first place. Yeah. The other the other group of people that

28:16

come to me are the people who are newly diagnosed or about to be diagnosed. And that's been a new thing recently where

28:23

people are hesitant because and I think a lot of it has to do with with the the

28:28

rise in information about the dangers of psychiatric medications. So we've got, you know, people like Dr. Yseph during

28:35

we've got um you know what's happening in the on the national level with uh Casey Means and Cali means you know

28:43

there's a lot of people who are now speaking out actively about the dangers of psychiatric medications. So when

28:49

people are getting diagnosed with these disorders they might believe the disorder diagnosis but they're hesitant about the medication because they're

28:56

hearing about the dangers of it and so they go looking and that's how people find me on that side of it. And and so

29:03

the reason why both of those groups are open to it, the ones who have been on medication for a long time know the

29:08

medications are not helping and they are experiencing the actual damage that the medications are doing to their brains and their bodies and their

29:14

lives and they want they want out. They they want help healing and they're desperate at that point. And

29:21

the people who are newly diagnosed know that they have an issue that they need help with, but they're hesitant about

29:27

what they're being offered. And so they're looking for other solutions that might prevent provide another way. And I

29:32

still have to work with both of those groups of people to undo the mindset that they've been diagnosed with a

29:38

disease. Right? There's still this there's still this belief in this disease model. And so that's one of the

29:43

things I have to work with them on is helping them understand you have not the reason you're experiencing these symptoms has not been identified yet.

29:50

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's that's I mean it's amazing that you can hit those people and you've got this new kind of

29:57

new lease of people coming into looking for like looking for alternatives. I think I think um the whole COVID saga has

30:04

absolutely educated people a little bit more just ask a few more questions rather than like jump in straight in and

30:10

yeah you've got people like Cali Casey means who have so much experience within

30:15

like the big farmer industry and they have absolutely nothing to gain from being outspoken about. If anything,

30:21

they're putting their lives at risk. Yes. So you they're the for me, they're the people to listen to, not the people on

30:26

CNN who are like being paid to to say certain things. It's those people who

30:31

are they putting their lives um and livelihoods and families on the line every time they go out and do and speak

30:37

or put out books, etc. So yeah, there's those people who are looking for looking for an alternative who are asking

30:43

questions before they kind of jump into a pretty serious protocol because I think most people don't really want to

30:49

be on medications or or or on drugs or being reliant on something like that. And then yeah, you do get those other

30:55

people at the right at the other end of the scale who are absolutely just like fed up with the life that they have being on these medications. And we

31:01

experience that here at True Hope. So most people come to us as their last hope because they've been through so

31:07

much for so long. They started off on one medication, they end up on maybe 10.

31:13

Yeah. To deal with the side effects of the other ones and it's just not the life they want to live anymore. And the body can only handle so much. You're talking

31:19

about like brain dysfunction, liver dysfunction, kidney dysfunction. They have to deal with this constant barragement of of uh synthetic chemicals

31:26

coming into the body. And it's just such it's [snorts] such a challenge. Hopefully once we can reach those

31:32

individuals and some of the people in the middle then we can go even we can go even before that and go talk about

31:38

prevention talking about prevention of um these disorders because I I personally feel you know being being

31:45

involved with True Hope for nearly 10 years and speaking with people daily about these products and what they do and understanding that our soil is so

31:51

unbelievably nutrient deficient. Our food is so nutrient deficient. don't think that anyone on the planet can eat

31:57

well enough to get what their body needs on a consistent basis. And then you throw in the stress of living in 2026

32:04

and the unknown future that we have like we're all of this underlying stress response going on which is just

32:10

continually depleting us. If we're not taking something like Empower Plus every single day that's you know that's proven

32:16

to work. It's proven to be bioavailable for the brain and through the gut then you're always going to be in a state of

32:23

lack. And I think that's just that's kind of like the next phase is like listen you don't have to go through these experiences. You don't have to

32:30

have the life that your mother did or your father did or your grandfather whatever. Like you've got these opportunities you've got but you also

32:36

have this responsibility which for a lot of people they just like don't want because I don't know that's just a type

32:42

of thing that not everyone really thrives upon or recognizes the actual power of that responsibility and what it

32:47

can do for you and how it can propel you forward. But I'd love to talk about identity as well because it's such an

32:54

important piece for everybody depending on what you go through. But in in your experience, how does a diagnosis

33:00

sometimes stop being a medical label and start becoming someone's entire

33:05

identity, their community, their story, and even their purpose going forward?

33:11

Well, I think um there's there's a few different pieces to that, and I I really believe that social media is driving

33:17

almost all of it, right? So, one of the challenges with social media is it creates echo chambers and it and we

33:26

reward the algorithm rewards, you know, like victim status. you know, people

33:33

people go in there and I I did a I did a blog post about this a couple years ago

33:38

about, you know, this idea of normalizing, you know, normalizing and bring awareness to and, you know, these

33:45

campaigns that are self-driven. Like we're doing the psychiatric drug company's work for them with all of

33:51

this. you know, bringing awareness to the symptoms and, you know, getting diagnosed and getting the help you need

33:57

and and normalizing it and bringing awareness to and I I understand where

34:04

all of this is coming from from a personal standpoint. You know, I I wanted people to understand what I was

34:09

suffering with because I didn't feel like I had any control over it. So, I wanted people to understand it. I wanted

34:15

I wanted people to have compassion for me. But compassion can become like a drug, right? It can it can feel very

34:22

validating to us to have somebody feel sorry for us and to have somebody understand what you're going through and

34:28

and that feels good and it's like a dopamine hit, you know, and if you get it all the time online from you know,

34:33

all these strangers, it's this weird combination of validation and um you

34:39

know that that keeps people in this thing like yes, this is who I am and and people like me for this and people give

34:46

me likes online and they they follow me and they want to listen to my story and The things that are that go viral are

34:52

the sad things like when somebody's suffering, you know, they're talking about their manic episode, they're

34:58

talking about the damage they did to their life. Everybody wants to hear about it. So then you want to talk about it more. You want to give more of that.

35:03

You know, who wants to see a stable bipolar person? Nobody, right? Because because it's not interesting and it's

35:09

not it's it's not going to go viral. And so there's there's that part of it. You start feeling validated for the

35:15

worst parts of your life and the worst parts of yourself. Yeah. And then there's, you know,

35:21

especially somebody who's a creator who is teaching people about bipolar, like if they get if they get big, their

35:27

livelihood is dependent on them being sick. Oh yeah. So now they've got, you know, they need to be validated in this. And and then

35:34

all the people that are following them are saying, "Yeah, look at this person who and and that's another thing. Sorry. There's like all these different pieces

35:40

of it that I think play into this like perfect storm to keep people in this mindset which is that if we if somebody

35:49

has more followers, they have more knowledge, they have more, you know, it gives people validity. So

35:55

if you have a lot of, you know, if you've got a million followers online, you must know more than the person who only has 2,000 followers online, right?

36:03

And so it it creates this just really weird this really weird situation where

36:08

you know I had there was a a psychiatric nurse practitioner that I came across my

36:13

feed one day and and she was going on and on about the all the research that

36:19

validates the use of lithium for bipolar disorder and she was talking about bipolar disorder in these very clinical

36:25

terms and I was listening to her thinking this she has definitely drunk the Kool-Aid man like she really

36:30

believes what she's selling. And so I just asked her, I started asking her questions and I didn't expect

36:36

I I truly didn't expect her to respond to me. I was actually asking questions to try and get people in the feed to

36:41

think about what she was talking about. But she responded to me and so I was

36:46

asking her, "How do you diagnose somebody? Like what what is your criteria?" And and just I tried to ask

36:53

questions to see where she was coming from so I could then ask her more questions to follow up. and and she was

36:58

talking about all these like blood work and all this stuff and I said that's not in the DSM and she's like well we don't

37:04

only use use the DSM and I thought okay wait a minute are you making up your own criteria now for diagnosing bipolar like

37:11

that's the DSM that's what the DSM is is to define how to diagnose bipolar and it is solely based on symptoms you don't go

37:18

in and get blood work done to diagnose with bipolar they don't do any kind of brain scans none of that is used to

37:24

diagnose this because there is no underlying ideology So then I asked her I was asking her

37:30

questions about the lithium and the studies that she was saying were done and you know to all the all the

37:36

effectiveness and and she kept coming back with all of this like

37:42

I don't I call it psychiatric babble like it's it is it is not there it

37:47

sounds very impressive but when you get underneath it there is nothing there. Mhm. And and I finally the last question that

37:54

I asked her that stopped her from responding to me is what non-drug interventions have you investigated for

38:00

treating bipolar? And she wouldn't respond to me anymore after that. She well considering she's not an expert

38:05

on that particular piece of the puzzle. Why would she? this idea that, you know, she was talking about like her video was

38:12

talking about the conferences they go to and all these studies that they're doing and all this stuff and and I wanted to know, have you ever studied any other

38:20

intervention besides drugs? Any other intervention? If you're doing all this research, there's lots and lots of

38:26

research out there for non-drug interventions. What research have you done on those? And that's when she shut down.

38:32

And and so we have been so thoroughly brainwashed in our society. And it truly

38:37

is a brainwashing that has occurred. And it and it started it it started with

38:43

psychiatrists wanting to be valid, you know, validated as true doctors. And then the the you know I Robert Whitaker

38:50

talks about it as an unholy alliance between drug manufacturers and and psychiatrists and doctors, right?

38:57

Yeah. And it used to be that at least the the therapy side of it,

39:02

psychotherapy was they they were competing with each other and psychotherapy recognized like they

39:08

wouldn't one of the things professor Joanna Monra talks about is psychotherapists used to not treat people that were on medication because

39:14

they understood that the drug was suppressing emotional response and people could not process emotions in a

39:20

healthy way in order to actually heal. So it used to be that psychotherapists wouldn't do it. But now the psychiatric

39:25

drug companies have got they are so thoroughly um integrated yeah

39:32

into the entire system that now even therapists will think it's best practice to put people on drugs.

39:39

Super interesting. Yeah. I I sorry that might have been a bit of a tangent but no no it was good. You certainly talked

39:46

about identity, especially with that individual there who's obviously built up this grand grandiosa identity around

39:51

her expertise, but then once you kind of like poke that a little bit and question and she didn't have a response, then the

39:57

the classic thing you could do on social media is just to block that person or not respond. And you mentioned at the

40:04

beginning of that the the comfort that comes with the the empathy and sympathy

40:10

that comes from likes and comments once you kind of put your things out there. And yeah, I'm lucky. I'm 41, so like

40:16

social media is, you know, it's not a big thing of my it's not a thing at all in my childhood. And I, you know, I'm

40:22

I'm blessed for that without question. Um, the only example I can think of is when I've got when I've got a cold or a

40:28

man flu, all I want is my wife's sympathy and like I might probably cough a little bit worse and I'll I'll I'll

40:35

talk a little bit like this and I'll be really sick because all I want is that comfort and that sympathy because it makes me feel better.

40:41

Um, yeah, it's it's super it's super interesting. Following up on um the

40:46

question of identity, when someone builds up their personality, their

40:53

worldview, their relationships around an illness, what happens, do you think

40:59

psychologically when another person like you comes along and proves that recovery

41:04

is possible? It threatens their entire sense of who they are, you know, and it's which is

41:10

again why I try to be compassionate because I remember what that felt like. There was part of me that resisted it,

41:15

but there was part of me that just thought this is who I am and this is my identity and and if you say that it's

41:22

possible to heal, who would I be without this? You know, this is my I think that

41:29

there's a sense of like if I can heal, then I have to be responsible not just

41:34

for now and moving forward, but for everything behind me. And that was very hard for me when I was healing. It was

41:40

very very painful experience going through and like taking my kids to therapy and telling them like you're

41:46

going to have to talk about me there because I know that I did things when you were younger that that hurt you

41:51

and and you're going to have to talk about it. And it was extraordinarily humbling and painful for me to see the

41:58

damage that I had done to my children and take ownership of it. But it's actually the only way to move forward

42:04

with any kind of sense of like self in your life, true sense of self and and feelings of worth, self-worth and and

42:10

validity. And that's why I work with people in my program so

42:15

strongly about taking responsibility for yourself because you know when when children are little, if they hurt

42:22

somebody, we always tell them even if it was an accident, we say, you know, say sorry. You need to acknowledge that you caused harm, right?

42:28

Yep. And when we are given kind of a get out of jail free card with a bipolar

42:33

diagnosis, we don't really take ownership for anything that we're doing. when we harm relationships, when we, you

42:40

know, run the credit card up into the tens of thousands of dollars, when we're, you know, doing things that are

42:47

illegal, when we're, you know, some people get sexually promiscuous when they're in that, you know, when we do those things,

42:53

um, drugs, alcohol, all of the things that people use when they're to cope when they're struggling with these symptoms,

43:00

if we have that get out of jail free card, like I I'm bipolar and I don't have any, you know, control over this and I'm so sorry and I'm doing the best

43:06

I can. and I'm taking my medications. You're you're asking people just to say,

43:11

you know, like I don't have to say sorry because I didn't mean to do it, right? But then if you start to take ownership

43:16

of that, you have to go back and say sorry and you have to say, you know, I I didn't mean to do that, but I am so

43:22

sorry because I know that what I did hurt you and I am actively working to try and overcome those, you know, the

43:28

sources of those symptoms, so I don't do those things anymore. It's really hard. It's a really

43:33

interesting way of looking at it without question what that does for people. And I think even in a negative state of a

43:40

having a a disease and having a you know a medical problem there's actually

43:45

comfort in the identity of that and whether you know there's people out there like Bruce Lipton Dr. Joe

43:52

Despenszer that talk about you know if you want to actually make any significant change in your life to be

43:58

painf free or disease free or have the abundance that you wish you have to step into a place of the unknown a place that

44:05

is unc uncomfortable and unfamiliar and we're just as human beings we're creatures of comfort and you could

44:10

probably create a whole lot of ease and comfort in your whole existence if you

44:16

were to just be completely embedded to the idea that I am bipolar that this and this is this is why why who I am and

44:24

that's that enough said well I it's interesting one of the things that I work with people on is we

44:30

call it choosing your heart and this is not my idea this was something I saw you know there's a there's a poem that was

44:37

going around the internet for a while you know you can choose to be you know work on your marriage you can choose to be divorced choose your heart like you

44:43

know you can choose to be unhealthy and overweight or you can choose to do the exercise necessary to get healthy choose your heart it it's more streamlined than

44:50

that and more eloquent than that, but that's the the idea, right? And and even

44:56

though there is relief in the idea that you're not responsible and that you are hiding behind this diagnosis, your life

45:03

is hard. Living with bipolar symptoms and blowing things up all the time is

45:09

isolating. You know, you you burn bridges, you burn relationships up, you lose jobs, you end up on disability.

45:15

Like, there's a lot of things that this leads to that make your life hard. And there is a comfort in the heart that you

45:22

know because it's you know like like I know this I know this thing and I know

45:28

what it's like and I know this suffering and there's again like the identity wrapped up in like

45:34

this sounds really harsh but it's self-pity you know my life is hard but I can't help it because I'm bipolar you

45:39

know this is just my life you know and but the hard that leads to the healing leads

45:45

to a life that is easier eventually and So, that's one of the things that I talk with people about on a regular basis

45:52

when they're in my program is like, guess this is hard. It's a lot easier to just fall back into that I am bipolar

45:58

and and fall back into that mindset of I don't have any choice over these or control over this stuff. But your life

46:03

is hard as it is right now. Like you're your relationships are hard. You're you know, it's hard. You can't hold a job

46:10

down or or you can, but it makes it really difficult. Like there's a lot of difficulty that comes from staying in

46:15

the illness. And so you can choose do I want to stay in that or do I want to lead you know

46:22

take the path of hard that leads to healing and recovery and eventually an easier life.

46:28

Your your recovery was it easy or was it hard? No. No. And that's actually one of the reasons why I started like why I started

46:35

my blog and why I wrote my book and why I do my podcast because it was so much harder than it needed to be

46:42

because I didn't know what I was doing. Like I was like I I had no idea what I was doing. I definitely didn't know I

46:48

was healing. I was just desperate because I made a commitment to to stay

46:53

alive for my kids and I didn't want to keep living like that. I I was so unhappy. I was so miserable in my life.

47:00

And so, you know, even I I'll tell you even with cross titration working, you know, I I think True Hope actually calls

47:05

it cross tapering. I started using that language because that was in the books that I was reading at the time when I was was like starting to understand this

47:12

stuff better. When I was going through the process of getting off the psychiatric medications that I've been on for 12 years and

47:19

trying to help my brain heal, I I think a lot of people will quit that process

47:25

because of the symptoms they experienced, the symptoms of over medication, withdrawal, med releases,

47:30

all of those things. But for me, it wasn't any worse than it already had been. And so I just kept doing it because I'm

47:36

like, well, it's not any worse and I am having glimpses of better, you know? So I kept going at it because and so that's

47:42

why like in my coaching program that's one of the first things we do is work through that process and I guide people through how to do that how to navigate

47:50

that more successfully so that they don't make a lot of the same mistakes I did you know and so

47:56

it it was a very very hard thing but as you as you go through the healing process so going back to that example of

48:03

the cross titration I had one day when I woke up and it felt like it was the first time my brain was

48:09

fully awake in over a decade. Wow. And I I called my husband. I was so

48:14

excited. He thought I was manic because I was so animated on the phone. But I'm like, I'm not manic. I'm wanting to know if this is what normal people's brains

48:20

feel like. Like I was so I I didn't know how to describe what I was feeling because I it's hard to describe a

48:26

drugged state to somebody who hasn't been drugged. But I my brain felt awake

48:32

like like in a healthy way in a way that it hadn't been in over a decade. And so

48:37

those little glimpses of like healing were what kept me going through all of

48:42

the other stuff that was so hard, you know, when I would experience depression again or when I would experience a med

48:48

release or something, you know, I I had I was like, well, I'm going to keep going because maybe I can get back to

48:54

that, you know? So, I don't know if that makes sense, but it it's that was what kept me going through it. And that's why

49:00

I teach people what I do because I my my experience was way harder than it needed to be. because I didn't know what I was

49:07

doing. It sounds like your your aha moment was wrapped primarily around an

49:12

external source, your kids that really kind of gave you that initial like liftoff. Yeah. And then during the

49:19

process of you know cross titration which is like responsibly and slowly come off medications while increasing

49:24

micronutrients with like empower plus you began to internally feel the

49:30

difference and then that was just like an extra rocket booster into the stratosphere in regards to your recovery. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it

49:38

[clears throat] and it felt good. It truly felt good to start being responsible for myself,

49:43

you know? I I don't I know that there is like this comfort that comes from not being responsible. But as you start

49:50

taking accountability for yourself and you actually start to be responsible, you start to feel the value and the

49:57

benefit that comes from being personally accountable. And that's where our feelings of selfworth and and internal

50:03

feelings. It doesn't need any kind of external validation. It it comes from within us. And this this recognition

50:10

like I am doing this. I am taking responsibility for myself. I am I am you know I am doing these things. And it and

50:16

it helps us to feel better about ourselves. And that that internal intrinsic motivation is kept me going

50:25

through all of these other things as I started to take responsibility and feel like I could. that that was really what

50:31

kept me like really motivated me to keep moving down the path to recovery. Yeah, the responsibility piece is is

50:38

massive and I think especially of our young people I think that we are disempowering them so much in regards to

50:45

actually being able to take responsibility and give them responsibility. I think that ends up being a big challenge. I remember I mean

50:50

I'm not comparing this to what you've gone through but when you were talking there I remember getting my first

50:56

paycheck from McDonald's when I was 15. And I was like, "This is awesome." Yes.

51:01

Right. And you've just got that that that little bit more of power and you got a little taste of like what you can actually achieve, what you can do once

51:08

you put the effort, the work, and the time into it. And yeah, it's I I mean, my kids are four and six, so I having to

51:16

think about now like how do I begin to instill instill in them responsibility

51:22

and the understanding of of money and that they can they can think their way to amazing things and they can use their

51:29

time and energy to do wonderful things in the future. And it's can a little bit of a challenge these day to kind of think about those types of things, but

51:36

it's certainly available and it's certainly a wonderful superpower that you can have once you recognize that you

51:42

can do all these things and you're you're so you're primarily responsible for it. Well, and and

51:50

even our our society, like I mentioned before, rewards victim status, but it doesn't feel good to be a victim because

51:56

you you you give up your power when you're a victim. you your all of your power goes outside of yourself. So it

52:03

gives other people power to hurt you. It gives other people power to control you. Right? When you become a victim, you are you know your disease is in charge or

52:11

the person who hurt you is in charge, right? But when you take that power back and start to be personally accountable

52:17

and personally responsible, you you don't you're not dependent on outside sources for validation or for

52:24

your state of being. Right. Yeah. And it's never going to get better. It would never get better in those situations. If anything, it's

52:29

going to get worse as your body ages and your organs become more and more depleted and the symptoms become even

52:35

worse. Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. It's a it's wild. I'd

52:40

love to ask you about um we've probably answered this maybe a little bit, but I

52:46

wanted to get like maybe some key factors, some key points in regards to like how your knowledge and experience

52:51

of of Empower Plus and Micronutrients has reshaped your understanding of mental illness.

52:57

Absolutely. Well, the first thing is is I don't view, like I mentioned earlier,

53:02

I don't I don't even like the word or the term bipolar disorder because it

53:08

lends validity to this idea that there that an underlying ideology has been identified.

53:13

Yeah. And when I, as I mentioned before, when I first started taking the True Hope micronutrients, it for many, many years

53:20

after I was on them, I didn't fully understand what they were doing inside my brain. And and it was once I started

53:29

understanding it and understanding the sources of symptoms that lead to a bipolar diagnosis, I can ask somebody. I

53:35

always tell people, tell me your story. That's the first thing I'll say to somebody when they come to me for help. I'm like, tell me your story. And I

53:41

don't want to hear your diagnosis. I want to hear about what led up to your diagnosis. Within five or 10 minutes,

53:46

they have mentioned almost without fail three or four underlying sources of symptoms. And the one of the primary

53:54

sources of symptoms for almost everybody out there is micronutrient insufficiency. And I I loved I I'm going

54:00

to put a plug in for these podcast episodes with David on my podcast, too, because I even learned more like I I've

54:07

been studying this stuff for the past, you know, three years. And and I learned way more even just talking to David

54:12

about those building blocks for the neurotransmitters in our brains. And if you want to talk about chemicals, there are chemicals in our brain. They're not

54:18

the chem synthetic chemicals that are produced in drugs. Yeah. They are naturally occurring chemicals that are the neurotransmitters that

54:24

regulate our emotions. And we one of the big um arguments that

54:31

people will come to me with is yeah, you might be able to resolve something as minor as depression, but you can't

54:36

resolve psychosis. And I'm like psych psychosis and depression are just opposite ends of the same scale. Like

54:42

all all you're doing is it's your brain is not getting what it needs to regulate itself. it is not getting the

54:48

micronutrients necessary to regulate the emotional response. And and so I loved

54:54

what David talked about how there are four key building blocks to the neurotransmitters. You've got vitamins,

55:00

minerals, amino acids, and omega-3s, the omega, the omegas that our brains need.

55:06

And if you are insufficient getting insufficient levels of any of those, your brain is not getting what it needs

55:12

to function in a healthy way. It is not building the neurotransmitters in a way that your brain is getting what it needs

55:17

to function in a healthy way. And we have no problem understanding that if you completely eliminate macronutrients

55:23

from your diet, like if there's if if you completely eliminate fat from your diet, for example, you're going to get

55:29

sick. Your body needs those macronutrients to to function to, you

55:34

know, rebuild cells and to regenerate your muscles and, you know, protein. eliminate all your protein from your

55:40

diet and you're going to get super sick and your muscles are going to atrophy. And we understand that, but we don't

55:45

think about the correlation between that and the brain. If our brain is not getting what it needs to function in a

55:52

healthy way, it will become distressed. It we'll end up with symptoms that indicate the brain is in distress. And

55:59

that leads us instead of instead of asking people when a psych when a psychiatrist interviews somebody at the beginning, they should be taking a

56:05

history of do you have a history of of um of you know trauma in your life. Is

56:10

there any history of substance use? Do have you been using any medications that could be causing an adverse reaction in

56:16

your brain? What's going on with your nutrient intake? Is your brain getting

56:22

what it needs to function in a healthy way? And I was I I've been super fascinated by the work of of Julia

56:28

Rucklage in doing these um studies in high stress situations like you know the

56:35

Christ Church New Zealand uh earthquake and you know going into places where there are natural disasters where you

56:41

can see the outside stressor there's major outside stress occurring number one because of the disaster and so

56:47

you're under a lot of stress right and then people in those situations are not getting enough to eat they're not

56:53

getting healthy Right? So, you've got this like perfect storm to test this

56:58

theory out. And every time they go in and do these studies, the people who are

57:03

given the micronutrients fare signific like sign stat statistically significantly better than the people who

57:09

aren't because their brains are getting what they need to be able to handle the stress they're under. And so, that's the

57:14

thing that is like it's just it is so logical to me. And a lot of times people will come after me and say like, "What's

57:21

your degree?" And I've I've gotten a little snarky lately with it because I'm so sick of being so you know what's your

57:26

degree and you're not you're not a doctor. You shouldn't be talking about this. I'm like I have common sense and the ability to read research and apply

57:32

it. That's my that's my credential. Like I you can do the same thing. You can use

57:38

your common sense. You can learn about how these things affect your brain and your ability to function and and what

57:44

the symptoms that can result are if your brain is not getting what it needs to function in a healthy way. And then you

57:49

can put two and two together. Yeah, I speak to a lot of people in natural health stores, so they're kind

57:55

of a little bit more attuned to the natural order of things, but most people aren't really like that. So yeah, when I

58:02

explain nutritional deficiency to people, I explain that, you know, if you're not consuming and absorbing and

58:09

assimilating the building blocks of what it is to be a human being, which is essentially proteins,

58:16

you're not going to be able to make things like melatonin, serotonin, you know, all these very very vital hormones

58:22

and neurotransmitters. And there's obviously thousands and thousands of them. Those are just kind of really popular ones. But then you go a little

58:28

layer deeper because you need to be able to convert things like tryptophan, you know, an amino acid. You need to be able

58:34

to convert that into serotonin and then into melatonin. It just it doesn't happen like with air. Like you need

58:42

co-actors. You need minerals, individual minerals, you need amino acids, you need vitamins to do all of these like

58:48

phenomenal, incredible things. And if you are deficient somewhat in any of these, you're going to be in a state

58:55

of lack. It doesn't mean you're not going to make any melatonin or serotonin, but your ability to do that on a consistent basis and if you're in a

59:01

stressful environment or in a stressed state in a stressed part of your life, your ability to do that again just

59:06

becomes even even trickier. Yeah. And I in my experience, you know,

59:12

I practiced I move I moved to this this part of the world to study nutrition and learn about the the pharmarmacology and

59:18

learn about the the micronutrients and the nutrition and even the like iovedic and Chinese medicine side of of healing.

59:25

And for me, my understanding on mental health is like you've you've kind of got this like spectrum of mental health and

59:31

there's like serious psychological disorders. I put bipolar, schizophrenia in those things as well. And then I'm I

59:37

feel like I'm over here where I just, you know, I've got young kids and I live in 2026 and I'm just, you know, I experience stress. And you need

59:46

consistent micronutrients on a daily basis. And some people, these people over here, without question, need them

59:52

more than other people because we're just we're just all very different. Yeah. And if you're not taking care of that

59:58

and you're not consuming a wellressearched, well put together, produced, manufactured product, you will be in a

1:00:05

state of of lack. And that's just the way it is. And I think that if we

1:00:10

had the powers that be and we had a different way of dealing with nutrition and health than anyone who went into a

1:00:18

doctor's office feeling anxious or feeling depressed or feeling suicidal, the first point of call would be

1:00:25

nutrition. It would be let's you know what do you consume on a on a daily basis? And you know doctors have seven,

1:00:32

eight, nine minutes if you're lucky to have that conversation. So, you not going to be able to dive into a, you

1:00:37

know, 2hour nutritional console, which is, you know, ideally way more valuable, where you can actually look into into

1:00:43

these things. You know, I get anxious when I don't drink enough water. Like, I is it I don't have an anxiety disorder.

1:00:49

I'm just like lazy and and I've just not drunk enough water that day. And that can be it can it just can be it's almost

1:00:57

like the answer is too I'm not gonna swear too simple to be to be to be the

1:01:04

reality that we [snorts] have to over complicate these things and again we we need these these comforts we need these

1:01:09

clear understanding oh I am bipolar oh that's that's the way it is so that

1:01:14

simple it couldn't be as easy as like you know maybe I need to eat consume micronutrient supplementations and maybe

1:01:20

my food and my soil has been absolutely destroyed. destroyed over the past hundred years. Maybe that's not a factor.

1:01:25

Like it it just makes way more sense. And I think as you get older and you get more experienced and you get more rational,

1:01:31

these things just make way more sense when you like really look around the world and you see what's happening. Like at the end of the day, like we've never

1:01:37

been more psychologically ill. And we've never had more drugs available for that. Are we getting better?

1:01:44

Like no. Yeah. Well, and one of I will tell you one other thing that I struggled with

1:01:50

was when you're struggling with with um mood

1:01:56

swings like like I experienced, it creates a problem for self-discipline. So, I would be super self-disciplined

1:02:02

when I was in my upswing, but then I would crash and I would struggle just to get out of bed in the morning and and so

1:02:08

it created a problem for me with self-discipline, which meant I wasn't progressing in my life in a lot of ways.

1:02:14

And the bipolar diagnosis can make you feel special. It can make

1:02:19

you feel unique. It can make you feel like there's something different about you. And so, you know, I and and so

1:02:26

there's, you know, and then there's also with along with that, there are people who are, you know, are artists or

1:02:33

musicians and that and they get a lot of their inspiration when they're in their manic phase and they don't want to lose that. So there's a lot of times when

1:02:40

people get kind of dependent or wrapped up in these in the diagnosis in the in

1:02:45

the symptoms that make you afraid of like who would I be if I didn't have this

1:02:50

right? So there's like there's so many different ways that people that that this challenges people's sense of being

1:02:57

that it makes them feel very defensive and angry and you know when when it's

1:03:03

when they're they're presented with the the possibility that what they've been told is not true about the you know what

1:03:10

they're struggling with um that it's possible that they don't have to live with that for the rest of their life.

1:03:16

And since I brought this up, I will tell you I am way more creative and way more

1:03:22

like able to to to grow into myself and develop my talents now that I'm stable

1:03:28

than I ever was when I was struggling with the symptoms ever. Like it there's no not even not even a contest of the

1:03:36

difference. you know, the the um the idea or the fact there that you just mentioned about people

1:03:42

wanting to feel special and super is without question I think a big core

1:03:48

root of it. I think I remember know so many people when they're young they want to be famous. Yeah. They want to stand out. They want to be

1:03:54

seen. They want to be relative. Um and that is a huge big part of of an

1:03:59

identity wrapped around a disorder. I think you nailed it there. Um,

1:04:04

we've just hit the hour here, but for someone listening who does feel trapped in their diagnosis and maybe even afraid

1:04:13

of letting go of it, what would you say to them about who they are without the

1:04:18

illness defining them? I am constantly in awe of the people

1:04:24

that come to me and what they have to offer the world that has been trapped inside of them because of the struggles

1:04:30

that they have with their symptoms. You know, I I get so excited as I help

1:04:35

people go through the healing process and help them to really truly see who they are without the illness and and who

1:04:41

they have the potential to become and what they have to offer the world. It is actually quite an honor. And I I have

1:04:47

not seen I have not experienced a single person who that's not true for. And so I

1:04:53

I think that there is a an underlying fear of who would I be without this? But I want to challenge that because I think

1:05:00

you have so much to offer the world that is being prevented by these symptoms and

1:05:07

by this illness that you're struggling with. And if you have the courage to

1:05:12

move into healing and choose the heart that leads to recovery, you have the

1:05:17

opportunity to discover yourself in a way that you never realized you could be. You know, everybody, I truly believe

1:05:24

that. I truly believe that that this this becomes a trap for people that

1:05:29

prevents them from fulfilling themselves and from becoming the person that they have the capability to become and

1:05:35

offering the world their unique talents and gifts that nobody else has.

1:05:40

Yeah, beautifully said. If I was going to put my conspiratorial hat on for a second, it wouldn't probably be a good

1:05:47

idea if we had most of the population feeling inspired, creative, motivated,

1:05:52

and fully functional. I think that we're a lot large populations are way easier

1:05:58

to control if they are struggling and dependent on a system that doesn't really serve them.

1:06:03

Absolutely. Anyway, um final thing here, if if the haters were actually listening

1:06:09

to, you know, listen to us right now and not to argue, but to primarily like understand because I also think that

1:06:16

like those people who are like real haters, let's just say you're hardcore non-fans. They're not going to listen to

1:06:23

an hour conversation of you and me. They're going to listen to the clips and they're going to comment to the clips because, you know, that's just kind of

1:06:30

who we are as human beings. I sometimes fall into that trap when I hear insane far-left wing politics. Um, but I do

1:06:38

trying to I'm trying to do my best. I'm trying to learn. Um, but what do you think those individuals might realize

1:06:43

about themselves, their fears, and their stories that they have been told about

1:06:49

bipolar disorder? I I really truly hope that that people

1:06:56

will start to listen with an open mind. You know, when I a lot of times when

1:07:01

people come after me, I always ask, have you have you looked at any of the information that I offer? Have you

1:07:07

looked at, you know, read my story? You know, I I I do know the suffering you're experiencing. I went through that

1:07:14

myself. Read my story. You'll hear about the suffering that I experienced and and that I actively sought psychiatric

1:07:20

treatment through the traditional psychiatric system for a for over a decade. I know

1:07:26

what it feels like to suffer that way and and I know how hard it is to confront the possibility that maybe you

1:07:32

do have the ability to heal and and then you have to look back and say sorry for

1:07:37

the things that you did when you were struggling with the symptoms. But think about how hard your life is

1:07:43

already. You know how you have to constantly be asking people to make excuses for you or to or to be okay with

1:07:50

the choices that you're making when you're struggling with symptoms. It doesn't feel good to be on these medications. Our brains never feel right

1:07:56

on them. They never feel right on them because they are not normalizing our brain. They're abnormalizing it. Just be

1:08:02

open. Just be willing to listen a little bit. Check out my podcast. Check out the True Hope podcast. Learn about what

1:08:08

we're talking about and then talk to other people who've gone through the healing process themselves and ask them

1:08:14

if they regret it. I certainly don't. My life is so much better now. Like I I

1:08:20

never could have fathomemed that my life could be the way that it is now. I never could have fathommed that I could go through challenging situations in my

1:08:26

life and not end up in the hospital as a result. But now I can. I can navigate life and and normal emotional responses

1:08:34

with, you know, with capability and stay stable and support other people while

1:08:39

they're struggling. And I never could have done that if I had stayed stuck in the psychiatric illness that I was

1:08:45

diagnosed with and the treatment that was not helping me to get better. Well said. And I think a great segue

1:08:53

into, let's just say, our world is watching um Epiphany, the true hope

1:08:58

battle, which is the latest documentary um about our company and about our story and about our history. I'll leave a link

1:09:03

for that in the show notes. It's free to watch on our website. And just in closing, I feel that a lot

1:09:11

of the let's say happiness or dopamine hit that a lot of these like individuals

1:09:17

get is in this echo chamber of social media of these comments and

1:09:23

likes or whatever it might be. You can obtain that just by waking up in

1:09:29

the morning looking at a blue sky. Like that could be your normal 24 hours or 16

1:09:34

hours of your waking day experiencing and being able to create that natural normal neurochemistry and not being

1:09:41

relying on a screen and scrolling in a dark place to try and hit that brain

1:09:47

chemistry. Um I understand and I and I sympathize because you know we're in a struggling world with screens and

1:09:53

technology. They're addicting. They they do create happy happy hormones, but you

1:09:59

got to know that it's not a long-term solution and there are amazing people out there who are just ready to ready

1:10:04

and happy to support you and that yeah, it comes from a real great place of of joy, happiness, and grace.

1:10:12

Yes. Wonderful. Michelle, where can people connect with you and learn more?

1:10:17

The upside of bipolar.com is my website and everything is linked there. my book, my podcast, you know, there's my social

1:10:24

media is all linked there. So, the upside of bipolar.com is the best place to start.

1:10:29

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming on to the show again. It's always an absolute pleasure. Um, yeah, I I'll

1:10:35

make sure that the show notes is probably going to be flooded with links and information, but that's that that's all good. There's so much great stuff to

1:10:41

share, and I hope people do take that time to be able to dive a little bit deeper. Um, but yeah, that is it for

1:10:47

this week. We'll see everyone soon. Thanks so much, Michelle. Thank you.