0:00

okay welcome Dr Shaft to True Hope cast I really appreciate you being with here

0:05

with me being with me and my audience here today how are you what is going well

0:12

very good today I just got back from celebrating a milestone birthday in Australia and so I'm in a great place

0:19

wonderful how was Australia I love Australia I I go very often and it's just super fun my God children lived

0:26

there and they wanted to throw a birthday party for me so uh I had to say yes yeah I think you have to say yes

0:32

when they're throwing a birthday party for you in another continent that's awesome very cool yeah wonderful well

0:38

why don't you as an introduction just let us know who you are and what it is that you do please

0:44

so my name is Dr Constance Scharf I am an addiction in mental health research I

0:50

really work at the intersection of addiction and Trauma and I specialize in collaborating with

0:57

other researchers to find complementary Therapies that can be used both in addiction

1:04

treatment programs and with people in early recovery from addiction and Trauma and other mental health issues to

1:11

improve outcomes I specifically look for uh everyday sorts of activities that we

1:17

can add to our lifestyle that have few or no uh negative consequences no side

1:25

effects so I work with things like music storytelling and so forth to help people

1:33

to change their perspectives because I really believe you can change your perspective on your life your life will

1:38

change so that's really the work that I do I founded the institute for

1:44

complementary and Indigenous mental health research a few years ago in order to

1:50

bring that Consortium of mental health researchers that is global together to

1:57

bring resources to one another wow very cool wonderful can you tell us a little bit more about addiction and

2:04

kind of what that means to you obviously within with your you know very particular skill set sure so uh

2:11

addiction really is when a behavior and

2:18

using substances is its own behavior right uh becomes so

2:25

overwhelming that you start to have negative consequences in your life I mean that's so people are like well I'm

2:30

Addicted to You Know chocolate well are you really you know I mean addiction

2:36

really connotes that your life is going off track because

2:43

um you cannot stop a behavior or cannot stay stopped

2:49

or uh if you can sort of White Knuckle it for a period of time you're pretty

2:55

miserable interesting and that that difference

3:01

between you know it's it's it's a massive part of your everyday conscious life you know you're awake and

3:09

you're like thinking about this thing and it's got a hold of you what's the like um I wonder like the the

3:16

timeline it very might be a very difficult question to ask but the timeline on like the beginning processes

3:22

of that addiction what we call it what we call an addiction would be kind of like not the end of someone's story for

3:28

sure but like it's like a peak yeah and there's a journey from there

3:33

right and there's original pieces I just wonder like is there do we see commonalities of individuals at that

3:40

beginning stages of when it's like far off and being an addiction sure we actually we really do so just for

3:47

transparency I've been in uh recovery for over 24 years

3:52

um and uh I used to drink two liters or more of hard liquor a day um uh there's something it's very often

4:00

said that researchers go into a field because it's me search right you want to know something personal to your own life

4:07

so um what I've found and certainly there are exceptions to to any you know uh rule

4:15

but what I found is that people who start using very young

4:21

uh the research shows us that they're if you start using when you're 9 10 11 12

4:27

versus when you're 19 20 22 right that that the likelihood of addiction is much

4:34

higher if you start using younger and also what we find is that it helps to

4:40

manage your feelings so I had come from very extreme uh

4:46

sexual Trauma from the ages of seven to ten so extreme that I have

4:51

um trauma-based amnesia for a lot of that period I have very very vague memories

4:57

um of kind of odd things during that period and my my memories are very strong up to there and then start up

5:03

again when the abuse ended so what I found when I started drinking was I

5:09

didn't have to feel my feelings and it tamped down this is why I work at the intersection of addiction and Trauma

5:15

it drinking tamped down my trauma symptoms so I didn't have this

5:23

dissociation the body memories of hyper vigilance and so on and so forth I didn't have them because I was drinking

5:30

to what we call the point of Oblivion I wanted to be absolutely physically and emotionally numb

5:37

and so with that um when you see people who are using to

5:45

change their feelings as opposed to I have friends who like the taste of

5:52

wine I don't know why they like it I think it is gross I think it's bitter and I never it never grew on me right

5:59

some people you know if you're drinking because you like the taste of wine with your meal and you're not doing it to

6:05

change your emotions odds are you are not going to become addicted so it's really looking at how we use something

6:13

you know sugar for example works very similarly to alcohol and very similarly to heroin inside the brain it

6:21

immediately numbs you out so of course when people you know we don't see people who are who are massively overeating

6:27

broccoli on any you know right because it doesn't there's a beautiful book called the biology of Desire I forget

6:33

the author's name um but it talks about why we

6:38

become addicted to things that feel good so sex drugs rock and roll right it's it's those things that that give us that

6:45

emotional connection interesting yeah I mean such a huge pace and in regards to

6:52

addiction is that always an abuse or a trauma connected with it

6:57

usually not always not always but there's something called adverse

7:06

look up the research on Aces and it talks about all different sorts of

7:11

adverse childhood experiences and the way it impacts us not only in terms of psychological issues addiction uh

7:19

post-traumatic stress disorder uh um anxiety depression and other mental

7:25

health issues but also physical health issues and these can be anything from having a parent who is incarcerated uh

7:32

violence in the home poverty you know the number one predictor of many uh

7:38

mental health issues is poverty it's so it doesn't have to be trauma that said

7:45

I know I've worked with thousands and thousands of people who suffer from addiction over the years and I know one

7:51

person who truly says I'm anomalous I had storybook

7:58

upbringing plenty of money parents who loved me no history of substance abuse

8:03

or mental health disorders and my family and I'm an alcoholic that's it I I know one so you know these

8:11

things don't come out of a vacuum right this isn't this isn't just like oh I just woke up one day and I needed to

8:18

manage my feelings with drugs and alcohol or sex or gambling or food or or

8:23

whatever um this this comes out of of some sort of need to self-medicate you know if we

8:30

had interventions you know if I'd had some sort of therapeutic Intervention when I was much younger

8:36

would I have become an alcoholic I don't know yes it's an interesting question

8:41

interesting question because there are so many therapies that could be introduced but obviously there's that

8:47

that pathway towards you know becoming an addict and yeah it's it's very

8:52

fascinating because you you use the um phrase changing feelings rather than like the complete like numbing of feelings

8:59

because I know a lot of individuals who suffer addiction whether that's coming from abuse or from some sort of trauma

9:06

obviously the brain is so powerful in regards to its ability to take us back emotionally to that to that time and

9:14

those thoughts and those emotions come up come up for people and it's and it's so so much that the idea of

9:20

thinking about them anymore is just way too much therefore like stepping towards like something like alcohol drinking to

9:27

the point where you are completely changing your ability to even think or

9:32

feel about that particular moment and then having to like

9:37

continuously do that day in day out because you know without taking something in substance wise you're not

9:44

really going to be able to change those thought patterns and change those feeling patterns and how that changes

9:50

your physical and mental body it must be such a difficult place for somebody to like

9:56

literally wake up every day into and having to like go through all of that again well it's literally a horror I

10:03

mean it it's horrifying and you know I used to you know like I said I I drank for Oblivion and there's um I used to

10:10

sit with my at the bar go to the bar and I would test myself and I'd feel my index finger of my left hand with the

10:16

fingers of my right hand and when it felt like wood right that you know where I was

10:22

physically and emotionally numb that's what I was going for now of course by this point I was a good alcoholic I'm

10:28

drinking two liters or more of hard liquor a day I you know I'd keep drinking until I fell off the bar stool

10:33

and you know or all the liquor was gone one of the two but that's you know but that's what we're going for is I don't

10:40

know how to feel my feelings and I may not have

10:47

you know as you know someone who suffers from addiction I may not have the emotional

10:52

support and connections that are necessary for recovery

10:57

so for example there were these rat studies that were done very famous if you look up the rat studies the

11:02

addiction rat studies and if you put a rat in a cage and you give it water that has a drug in it doesn't matter what the

11:08

drug is but water that has a drug in it and regular water the rat will drink the drug water until

11:15

it dies well another researcher was like well maybe the rat is picking the drug water

11:24

because it's completely bored or traumatized because it doesn't have

11:29

anything else to do so he built a rat Paradise

11:35

and there were lots of other rats and there was plenty of food and cheese and all the things that rats like and there

11:41

were games because rats are actually very intelligent they wanted to you know do all these games and guess what the

11:46

rats didn't pick they would taste it right they'd try it but they didn't pick

11:51

the drug water fascinating and so what that taught us

11:57

was very important is that the Curative for addiction is not sobriety it's not

12:04

just I don't do that anymore it's connection and we see this with trauma

12:09

and with suicidal ideation is that when we have strong connections

12:16

and can recognize them and really have supportive healthy or relatively healthy

12:23

people in our lives then the need to act out diminishes

12:30

so let me give you another example with suicidal ideation there's two different kinds of of suicide one is I have a

12:38

horrible physical illness I'm dying of cancer or something and I want to put an

12:44

end to my life at a certain point self-euthanasia that's something different so let's just

12:49

set that aside sure then there are the people who are like you

12:54

the people that I love would be better off if I wasn't here that's the narrative that lets us off

13:02

the hook to kill ourselves well that's not true and so if we can build that connection

13:09

so that I know that my death will hurt you in a

13:17

devastating way that's the kind of connection that makes me want to seek

13:22

treatment what how does conventional does conventional medicine do a good job with

13:29

addiction has it evolved is it changing like or is it just no it's changing and it's better but it's horrible

13:35

so a lot of the Therapeutics that we know work

13:41

and I wrote a best-selling book about this in in 2012 ending addiction for good about I worked at an addiction

13:48

treatment facility I was a director of addiction research in the senior addiction research fellow at this very famous facility in Malibu California

13:56

and we had a treatment protocol that had near 100 success rate at one

14:02

year so at one year which is where we stopped tracking at one year people were still abstinent from drugs

14:09

and alcohol and if they weren't and hadn't uh left without you know

14:16

against medical advice if we if they had left when we discharged them we brought them back to treatment for free

14:21

okay right when we put our money where our mouth was and what we did is we published a book with this treatment

14:27

protocol to give it to everyone we did not want that to be proprietary

14:32

so that because of the treatment center I'll be honest was very expensive at that time it did not take insurance

14:38

and uh we said hey everybody needs to know this information the information is this is that there are complementary

14:45

Therapies that when used in conjunction with

14:50

Psychotherapy and mutual Aid groups like 12-step programs

14:56

radically improve treatment outcomes most of these are not

15:02

billable to Insurance the way that treatment centers that use some of them build them to insurance is to bundle

15:10

them so you get they you know there's certain things you have to do in a day you have to eat lunch and you have transition between groups and whatever

15:16

so they'll pay for a certain number of sessions but a lot of this stuff is just not billable to insurance

15:22

somatic experiencing which has been absolutely transformative

15:28

not only for myself but for other people that I work with with trauma um by and large not billable to

15:35

insurance and so if you have money you can get access to it and if you don't

15:40

then you're out of luck and so I think we still have a tremendous

15:47

stigma that there is this that there is a moral depravity among people who suffer from

15:55

addiction and that if we just tried harder or cared about you more

16:03

than would stop and that really isn't the case the brain

16:08

is actually physically and biochemically co-opted by addiction you get a feedback loop so one

16:15

of the things about addiction is you're not just um using drugs and alcohol let's use let's

16:21

use chemical dependency you're not using just use you're thinking about it all the time that builds what fires together

16:27

wires together that builds new neural Pathways so that you have this feedback loop that all you're thinking about is

16:33

using so if you invite me to your wedding and you're like but but doc I don't want you to I don't want you to use well that's not a fair ask

16:41

you know I may or may not show up I may or may not show up high I may or may not cause a scene it has nothing to do with

16:47

you it has to do with the mental processes that I have to use

16:52

I had a cousin who was a heroin addict and her mother wanted her to be at her wedding

16:58

and so they invited her and uh God bless her she tried really hard to you know be

17:04

appropriate at the wedding and at one point during the service she went on the nod right she started to fall asleep

17:10

leaned forward sleepily and one of her breasts fell out of her dress

17:17

not the best thing it's mom's wedding right and so her uncle who was sitting next to her pushed her back in her chair

17:23

popped her you know blew back in her dress and everybody continued on with the service she wasn't meaning to be a

17:31

jerk she wasn't meaning to she's a heroin addict and she had to she

17:37

had to be high she just physically had to be high and her mother's very grateful because if that she was at the

17:42

wedding because a few years later she died yeah wow I mean it's so unbelievably

17:48

complex and you know as a um society when we're talking about trauma or addiction or something like that we like

17:54

to come up with very simple ideas or Solutions or like just like why

18:01

don't you just stop doing what you're doing and then you'll be happier right like it's it's obviously not as simple

18:08

as that especially when we're talking about the neurochemistry and you know when you even start thinking about

18:13

something whether it's you using a drug or like wanting to do something different your brain is going

18:20

to start creating matter and you know start creating those newer Pathways to to strengthen that thought process right

18:27

it does

18:35

from the drug which is detox right when we separate you from the drug you should get better right if you get bit by a

18:42

snake a venomous snake and we give you anti-venom you immediately start to improve right assuming that you your

18:49

fingers aren't already necrotic and all that kind of stuff right you immediately start to get better if uh you uh have an

18:56

anaphylactic shock and we give you you know shoot you up with an EpiPen you immediately start to get better

19:02

but with people who have substance abuse when we separate you from your from whatever drugs and alcohol you've been

19:08

using you get worse much worse mentally physically everything is terrible

19:16

can you take us through the like the biochemistry of why that happens

19:24

sorry yeah yeah yes just the drug that is the problem

19:29

that's because you should if we separated you from the drug you should immediately get better so it's not just the drug it's a neurological process

19:36

it's a it's a psychological process as well so so in answer to your question

19:41

like what's happening

19:47

essentially drug addicts are are chemists and even if you're a sex addict

19:55

or gambling addiction your brain produces chemicals on its own

20:04

so every time you gamble for example you

20:10

get that high that's why people like to gamble right I don't understand that because

20:17

when I put a a dollar down on the table for you know at a you know at a card

20:24

game right and then 32 seconds later I've lost and they pull

20:30

the dollar away I was like I'm sorry where I wanted a dollars worth of goods

20:35

and services right and and this is not fun right and when I win I'm

20:42

like oh that's nice so I just went to the to the horse races in in Australia and I go in right that

20:50

I'm gonna put a five dollar bet on three of the races or whatever and and it's

20:56

like buying a concert ticket to me right you know um it's just the cost of the day and if I lose all the money it's

21:02

fine same as if I went to a concert and and it's I'm paying for the experience and I happen to win

21:07

on one of the things and I won uh 300 on a ten dollar bet

21:13

and I was like oh wow that's nice it doesn't it doesn't I don't get that

21:19

chemical response in the same way that some people when they drink they're like oh I'm starting to feel this I don't

21:24

like the way I feel I'm gonna I'm gonna stop and my response is what the hell is

21:30

wrong with like that's the point right so so we our brains produce these

21:37

chemicals and some people it produces them in high amounts and some people it doesn't but when we're taking substances I've

21:44

gotten my brain to shut off what it does naturally to self produce

21:51

these chemicals and I'm telling it okay we're gonna I want to feel good I'm going to take cocaine I want to feel

21:58

nothing I'm going to take care of when I want to feel you know uh Spacey I'm going to take whatever you

22:04

know I'm telling myself how I'm going to feel and I'm doing the chemistry so when

22:09

you take those chemicals out your brain's not producing those neurochemicals

22:15

so for so another example so when you work with music with people in very very early recovery both from addiction and

22:22

Trauma the brain is not producing serotonin oxytocin and dopamine the feel good

22:28

chemicals inappropriate amounts but if you sing particular or play

22:35

instruments but particularly see let's just stick to singing If you sing

22:41

your entire brain lights up and starts to create these chemicals you know this

22:46

is true because if you've ever had a bad day and you uh were sitting in traffic

22:53

and a song you like came down came on the radio and you start singing to it what happens

22:58

Everything Changes you feel better yeah right you feel better you do your own carpool karaoke sing like no one can

23:04

hear you because you don't care you feel better that's actually a biochemical response your brain is producing

23:10

serotonin oxytocin and dopamine now imagine you are in early recovery from

23:16

uh addiction or trauma and your brain is not producing those in normal amounts so

23:23

you're you know we're it when we're in the car we're moving from here to here and we're like wow I feel a little better

23:29

if you're in drug treatment you're way you know you're in the basement and then all of a sudden you get a dump of these

23:36

feel-good chemicals we've now given you a natural high what do we see happens after that you uh will

23:43

want to stay in treatment longer you'll be more engaged in treatment you know we've had um you know people who are like I'm a

23:49

heroin addict I'm just I'm gonna die and they're probably you know that listen before you come into treatment that is

23:55

the likelihood right that's where that path goes and then they come out and they're like you know after singing a

24:01

song and shaking a shaker uh they feel so much better and so we get better

24:07

treatment outcomes we also when we sing We are especially if we write our own lyrics We unearth issues

24:14

that maybe we can't talk about so people with trauma for example will have

24:19

the inability to speak about the trauma that they went through so it was I was in therapy for two years

24:27

before I could say the word incest I would literally sit in front of my therapist uh

24:32

the word would not come out right so how was the seven-year-old who

24:38

I'm old enough that you know we didn't have that don't have you know tell somebody if someone's touching you wear

24:43

your bathing suit goes like we didn't have that back when I was growing up so I didn't have not only did I not have

24:49

the language to share what was going on with someone I did not have the ability that was shut

24:55

down I literally had lost my voice when it came to that so singing allows us to uh move through

25:04

that by dumping changing the neurochemistry in our brain at least for

25:09

a few hours that's wonderful so it's almost like the process of the therapies you're talking about within within the

25:16

research program and the the the protocol that you put together you're trying to help people literally

25:21

like rewire their brains into a different way and kind of like wait wake up endogenous Pathways

25:28

um to create basically just wake the brain up I suppose to kind of get back

25:33

it to its normal state but also with the process of you know singing and writing things down

25:39

um like there's certainly a self-therapeutic process going through there because so much of that experience

25:46

has just been completely undigested sitting there in a you know sitting

25:51

there in somebody's psyche coming out as behaviors and thoughts and then you're trying to help them kind of get through

25:58

that very deep dark situation so there's two things number one it's not sitting in your psyche it's sitting in your body

26:04

okay so there's a wonderful book called the body keeps the score by vanderkolk and there's been research by Vandercook

26:11

Dr Perry and several others um uh Dr Perry recently wrote a book with Oprah um it's basically over

26:17

interviewing him what happened to you um and in this research it says that literally

26:24

traumas are kept in the body in uh traditional methods of healing shamanic

26:31

um healing methods indigenous healing methods that are observational you'll see that uh

26:38

traditional healers will talk about shaking medicine because animals don't hold trauma the way human beings do

26:44

other animals don't so if a bird is attacked by a predator and gets away

26:49

doesn't hold that trauma it goes under a bush a rock whatever fluffs up its

26:55

feathers and Shakes and moves that through so trauma release exercises for example

27:03

are shaking exercises to dislodge and move these

27:09

trapped energies essentially through the body so the first thing is that it stays

27:15

in these things stay trapped in the body the until their process the other part

27:20

is that whatever you believe is true is true

27:26

so I don't know about truths with a capital T like what's the nature of the

27:31

universe and how did we get here and I I don't know but I do know in terms of creating

27:37

change processes for people if you believe that you can recover

27:43

you got a good shot if you believe that you're hopeless you

27:49

are hopeless right um a family member of mine was recently

27:55

diagnosed with cancer and uh very aggressive and I was talking to an

28:00

oncologist friend of mine about it and I said you know this family member is very uh very optimistic and on college is

28:08

like good that's the one person you need to be optimistic is the patient because we've

28:13

if he's not optimistic we've lost him already and I was like good yes I mean that's true so

28:22

I for example when I overheard my father who was the

28:27

one who abused me saying one day I don't like to have sex with fat women he was talking to someone

28:34

and I was like well this is very good information then I should become very very fat and then I will be safe so my

28:42

world view was I need to be very very heavy and I really in that child's mind

28:47

wanted to become such an immovable mound of Flesh that

28:54

you know no one could touch me nor would want to okay right so that I would have

29:00

agency over my own body right that was that was the goal and so at one point I was up to 325 pounds and pulled pulled a

29:08

muscle you know trying to wipe my own backside I mean we're getting a little too when we my personal definition for

29:16

myself of too large is when you can't wipe your own bum right I that's for me that's my definition of we need to do

29:23

something about this well and I couldn't because I had this belief that the only reason I was safe

29:30

and not assaulted was because I was big well

29:37

someone said to me once right when I started the somatic experiencing someone said to me

29:42

a friend said that's not true and it hit me it's not true heavy women

29:48

get assaulted I was getting you know I'm very because I was groomed a certain way I can be blind to Predators so predators

29:56

would approach me whether I was big whether I was it didn't they didn't care

30:03

immediately I dropped 75 pounds I've kept it off for almost five years now

30:08

and I did nothing different I did not change my eating I did not change my

30:13

exercise I did I simply had a different truth and the truth was

30:23

whatever size you are has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to be assaulted I'm actually much less likely to be

30:29

assaulted at a smaller size because I'm stronger and quicker and I'm gonna you know cut your throat right you know I'm

30:36

not so I'm not quite so big and helpless so when we can change those stories and

30:42

I call them little tea truths and they just have to be true enough

30:48

that we can pivot I have no idea what the exact statistics

30:54

are on on sexual assault and size I don't who knows but I do know that

31:03

uh understanding here that I don't have to be

31:08

a mountain of Flesh changed my life and if we can get people to have those

31:14

little T truth changes Everything Will Change remarkable and there are different

31:21

techniques in regards to is that something as a therapist that you're

31:26

attempting to to help people discover so I want to be real clear I'm not a therapist I'm a

31:33

researcher I work with therapists and I train therapists in um using these techniques so I don't

31:41

work with clients directly um except as a peer right one trauma

31:47

Survivor one you know recovered alcoholic to someone else who's going through that right but there are

31:53

wonderful wonderful resources you know I love um the artist's way

32:01

and in that book she talks about morning pages and just writing out

32:06

you know three pages just stream of Consciousness first thing in the morning here we go

32:15

and it clears all the garbage it clears all the garbage

32:22

um in 12-step programs prayer and meditation are highly encouraged now what I found is people with significant

32:28

trauma can't meditate because the second you close your eyes or go to that quiet space all the you

32:34

know uh stuff comes up and that's because we're in a hyper Vigilant State see that what trauma really is I

32:41

there's lots of textbook definitions that I could give you but trauma to me is really when the past intrudes on the

32:47

present it feels like when I'm in a traumatized state it feels

32:54

like there is a clear and present danger of my father assaulting me I feel like I

33:01

literally could used to be able to feel them breathing on my neck my father's been dead for I don't know 26 27 years

33:07

he is not breathing on my neck he is not here he is not a danger no one else is

33:13

here I am safe but trauma makes it feel as if

33:20

the danger is present so if we so what do we do then to make

33:28

if meditation has such great great outcomes what do we do

33:35

to help people be able to participate in that activity so those are the things

33:42

that I work with with people by the way you do a somatic experiencing to move the trauma through so then you can be

33:48

comfortable closing your eyes or or you know having someone you know I used to

33:54

uh go to a 12-step meeting and and there were no seats saved but I came from very

34:00

far away and so they saved a seat for me and they saved the seat behind me because the the

34:07

chairs were in a horseshoe and I couldn't stand to not have my back

34:12

against the wall and so they put someone there were only two men that would sit in that seat

34:18

behind me but they put one of those two men in the seat behind me so that I could stay in the meeting

34:25

interesting you know or I had anxiety see these are the kind of things that anybody can do

34:32

this is what connection is too right my my friends my peers saw that I was

34:39

losing my mind with anxiety having someone not you that I didn't know

34:45

sit behind me and they're like well that's an easy fix for us we can accommodate that

34:50

I used to do a fancy Stitch needlepoint because I if I did something with my

34:57

hands in these meetings it grounded me and I could be present

35:03

and not thinking about who's sitting behind me who's over there what's the thing you know staring at the door

35:09

you know and it was interesting to me because I was that particular group had

35:14

a lot of veterans it was near the VA Hospital the Veterans Administration Hospital in Los Angeles and the Vets

35:19

would come over for that meeting and they were all asking what what's this needlepoint how can I do can I do that

35:25

like you know share this because we bonded over having

35:31

similar trauma experiences the details of it weren't the same but the experience of of post-traumatic stress

35:37

was very similar and so these are the kinds of things that we can do

35:45

to improve our treatment outcomes right because I did needlepoint because my

35:52

friends sat behind me I was able to then participate in in the 12-step group and get the results of

35:59

that such seemingly subtle things that you can do to you know help

36:04

put your your brain and your body in a situation that you know um

36:09

would be congruent to that healing process can you tell me a little bit more about the somatic experiences that

36:14

you're talking about like can you take me through through a couple of examples perhaps

36:25

[Music] and I just based out of Los Angeles and I just am crazy about it but there are

36:31

other different kinds of things the premise is is that you have emotion

36:40

trapped in the body you have these experiences that are trapped in the body which is what Aces really is based on in

36:46

the sense of you know how is it that um people who you know have experienced

36:53

you know multiple adverse experiences in early life poverty incarcerated parents

37:00

drug abuse you know whatever it happens to be have physical ailments it's because the

37:07

the body doesn't have a way to process that so if we process it so that's

37:12

really about foreign first of all

37:17

identifying how your body feels so I probably spent personally I don't

37:24

know months where if you ask me like what's happening from

37:32

you know the neck down or identify that emotion

37:37

you're gonna have to help me with that you know because I didn't know I could

37:43

tell you I was feeling something but what was it you know and so learning

37:49

that is a very particular process then there are other um there are other forms like uh trauma

37:56

release exercises that uh tap into the nervous system to cause shaking

38:02

literally like just very subtle shaking and those are used

38:07

um in war zones very often to help people to process because this is exactly like what I was saying like the

38:13

birds and the rabbits and all those little prey animals do they literally shake out

38:19

these feelings and so that's what somatic experiencing is about is to say

38:25

is to dislodge and move these uh trapped emotions essentially out of the body

38:32

it's not it's one of the things we've learned with trauma survivors is it traditional talk therapy

38:40

is not very helpful not enough it I can tell you what happened

38:46

you know this happened and that happened but I have no connection to the emotion

38:51

of it there's no processing that goes on and I'm so deadpan when I you know used

39:00

to talk about these I had 20 years of very high end very you know traditional talk therapy and and you know they tried

39:08

um but the therapist would cry and I would dissociate because I

39:14

couldn't feel those emotions you know I'd feel like I was up here sort of looking at yeah I'd come back you know

39:21

tomorrow or something and I'd still be talking but my you know the next day I couldn't

39:26

tell you what happened I don't know I I you know so it's really about

39:33

getting those feelings out not discussing

39:41

the experience and that's what somatics does wonderful and there's a there's a whole

39:47

body of literature on this these these semantic experiences and how they're supporting right so I would stop I would

39:53

start with the body keeps the score okay I would start with the body keeps the score because he really explains

40:00

what's happening and then I would look into you know trauma release exercises

40:05

radical aliveness and so forth um and you can you can look these up and see what's available near you the challenge at

40:13

least here in the United States is that uh most of this is not covered by Insurance

40:18

yeah which is a really really big challenge for probably the majority of people with

40:23

with addiction issues which is yeah that's a that's a big concern are there any I mean does your research stem to

40:29

other countries and what they're doing to try and support the you know the majority of people within their within

40:35

their own populations sure so I you know Consortium of people internationally I've traveled all over the

40:42

over the different researchers and uh the the

40:48

other countries do a lot better job I mean 2002 Portugal decriminalized

40:54

yeah uh possession of substances and instead of sending you to jail which in the US

40:59

we still send you jail for for different things yeah um you know I mean there I don't know the big news here in the

41:05

United States is there's talk about uh uh pardons for federal

41:12

um people who are in jail for federal uh marijuana offenses right possession of

41:17

possession right because now it's legal in so many states so you know um there there's this big

41:23

criminalization but Portugal understood

41:28

that addiction is a treatable disorder

41:35

and that people need help not jail and they put the money into

41:42

treatment rather than into incarceration and they've had tremendously positive

41:48

positive results and everyone's like oh look Portugal that's nice you know um

41:53

in the United States we have drug courts and Drug courts by far have better

41:59

outcomes than just throwing people away in the clink and hoping that they you

42:05

know do better what's a drug court a drug court is uh if you

42:10

um have some sort of drug possession right we're not talking about you know major drug cartels who are bringing in

42:16

millions of dollars of fentanyl that's something different but someone who's you know a drug addict

42:21

and you go to a drug court and they give you instead of incarceration you go into a treatment program

42:28

some of them are residential and some of them are not and you have updates and they're usually a year sometimes a

42:35

little more um it's a little bit more like probation you know and you have to do certain

42:40

things as a condition of probation right so you have to do certain things whether that's you know go to a residential

42:46

treatment facility or go to a sober living or participate in a 12-step whatever they decide

42:54

there's very often you know job placement and skill building and other things that go in with that too so

43:01

we know that those kinds of activities work

43:07

but we also have a highly privatized prison system here and there's incentive for people to get put in jail

43:13

you know so it's difficult I was in uh lubliana

43:19

Slovenia um and giving a presentation and I was

43:25

uh invited to speak to at a drug treatment facility I had met some

43:30

Slovenian researchers in Brazil and so when I went to Slovenia they said come to our facility and talk to our patients

43:37

and I was impressed first of all almost everyone spoke English and probably three or four other language in addition

43:43

to their their native tongue but there was a woman there and she said well how long do people get to stay in

43:50

treatment in the United States and I said well we try to keep them in for in

43:56

residential treatment for 28 to 30 days but most are getting kicked out about between 7 and 17 days now

44:03

they go into outpatient and then they have to quote unquote fail out of

44:09

outpatient which is very often a relapse in order to get back into residential

44:14

and we know researchers will tell you we've known for over 40 almost 50 years that longer term treatment

44:23

residential then step down to outpatient you know then step down to sober for the course of a year is really ideal

44:32

um and she was horrified now the treatment facility that I worked at we kept people

44:38

for 90 to 120 days again because they were self-paying we weren't Insurance dependent

44:44

but she was horrified and I and I said I'm interested why are you why are you

44:50

so upset and she said because we stay here until the doctor says that we're ready to step down our level of care and

44:57

knowing to a different kind and I was like well yeah ideally yeah

45:03

yeah that's what I'd like too you know so there are some amazing there are some

45:09

countries that are looking at this um in a very very different light in regards to

45:15

what other options are out there for people and looking to change the the process and obviously there's there's

45:20

issues in with North America in regards to you know drug companies and you know the

45:26

allocation of resources to these types of things and even just like taking the time to actually look at what's the

45:31

current research in regards to addiction and having conversations with people like yourself it's probably not a high

45:36

priority for you know certain governments but you know Portugal Slovenia talking about there like these

45:43

are these are nations that are obviously seen a problem within their populations and have asked just simply ask the

45:50

question like what what can we do and you know if one thing didn't work they can try something different and you know

45:55

putting researchers on the case so it's yeah it's quite remarkable that we do have you can you can put aside addiction

46:02

and Trauma even medicine that there are so many wonderful um countries doing wonderful things in different areas and

46:08

and it's almost just like countries don't um want to know about better solutions for their people it's quite Wild Well it

46:16

really is to me it's a choice so one of the countries really out at the Forefront um

46:21

two countries out at the Forefront of of trauma um are uh Australia and New Zealand

46:29

you know and although peace and Reconciliation uh coming out of uh AF

46:35

out of the African continent certainly is is something to look at too but um

46:42

Australia like I said I just came back from there one of the things that they do is they bring in

46:49

very consciously Aboriginal Pacific Islander indigenous ways of

46:57

knowing because the world view of different cultures is different right

47:03

we're seeing that in in Iran right now the people are saying no no no you don't get to tell me right that I have to wear

47:09

my hair you know a certain kind of scarf on my hair so the indigenous or Aboriginal views of

47:18

well-being and what makes someone well or you know mentally ill which is not a

47:25

term that they would use is different and so they bring in those

47:30

ways of knowing knowing to bring in community connections right so I was in Namibia

47:37

in southern Africa working with a traditional a group of traditional healers and they will sing and dance and

47:46

help a person to be more connected in their community so

47:52

they don't have the desire to act out and if they need help with someone then people help them

47:59

right and so those you know in in India

48:05

someone who has what we would diagnose as schizophrenia is considered it by

48:11

Hindus to be touched by God or the gods and is people come to them wanting you

48:18

know because they have a different perception they don't see that as a mental illness they see

48:24

someone who's just living their own reality I have a a friend who uh had late onset schizophrenia and is Kenyan

48:31

and he literally wanders around Northern Kenya in his own world people make sure he has

48:39

food people make sure that he's taken care of people make sure that anything he needs he has he goes into people that

48:45

he trusts when he wants to leaves when he wants to and the interesting thing is the animals the wild animals don't eat

48:51

them this has been going on for uh 25 years now he does not get eaten by lions or

48:58

hyenas or what everybody just leaves him alone so in our worldview would put him in an

49:03

institution further and put them on Thorazine and just you know until he's drooling on

49:09

himself yeah or he's having the life that he's having that he actually is pretty happy with

49:15

yeah we would go straight to isolation and even isolating our own individual's Mind through Pharmaceuticals so very

49:22

very different approaches how do you go to explaining the fact that how powerful

49:27

community and reconnection with other humans and even animals and the

49:33

environment I suppose is when it comes to um healing from addiction or from trauma

49:41

so

49:47

so we in the West have a very disconnected

49:54

individualized perception of how the world is and how the world

50:00

works and I love that you brought the environment into it because I'm actually transitioning in my work a lot more into

50:06

how do we reconnect with the environment not only for our own mental well-being

50:13

but also to Stave off the worst impacts of climate change which you know we're

50:18

seeing all over the world this huge hurricane that hit the United States recently that the lake that's just

50:25

sprung up and displaced you know something similar to 90 percent of the

50:31

population of Canada you know about 30 million people in Pakistan like nobody you know oh well there's just a new Lake

50:38

in Pakistan that's the size of Britain excuse me like are we not concerned you

50:44

know but no but we're not but we're not and so it really is I am

50:52

probably for the first time ever hopeful because I really like gen Z's again as a

50:57

group because what I'm hearing and we're at the very

51:02

beginning of the research and we you know the thing about research is you don't know until after it's over and then you get to look back and you know

51:08

see what happened but I'm very hopeful because gen Z seem to be

51:14

seeing the world in a different way and saying this hyper-individualized capitalistic

51:20

ever-expanding economy point of view is a false narrative

51:27

it just doesn't work I mean what the three richest guys in the world keep going shooting themselves up into space

51:33

you know and uh and Jackson Mississippi and Flint Michigan don't have drinkable

51:38

potable water you know like what what what are our priorities

51:45

and so but there's this different idea of community

51:51

and connection that is starting to grow up and that to me

51:58

is the the hope for the future

52:03

whether it's Mental Health you know climate change uh

52:09

Societies in which you know we are connected and whatever because we have

52:14

plenty of resources the problem is not lack of resources you know they say they say they're well

52:20

there's no workers like in the United States right now there's a labor shortage there's no labor shortage if you if you apply for a job that pays

52:27

six figures or better you're going to be in there with with a hundred other people applying for the same job there's

52:33

a shortage of people who want to be mistreated certainly yeah complex complex stuff and

52:40

it's it's very interesting to recognize the disconnect that we do have as individuals whether we are going

52:47

through addiction or not and how Simplicity and reconnecting with things like nature and yourself and your body

52:54

can be some other like the simplest ways for you to have like a huge impact and not just your your life but the people

53:00

around you and you know ultimately the world everything's connected so it's super super fascinating that that you

53:06

you bring that whole topic up just kind of final question has the research in

53:12

regards to like the the pandemic in the last couple of years in regards to like addiction and the trauma of all of that

53:18

has anything really been done in regards to looking at any kind of like interesting patterns and how let's say

53:24

this like Global crisis is is affected like populations and people

53:30

no because we're still in it I mean people want to say that that the you know pandemic's over it it's not

53:37

um and you know we've we're having we have a polio outbreak in New York state we have you know Global monkey pox which

53:45

I think we're getting ahead of um we have a a new sort of uh uh

53:53

covid type uh virus that seems that's uh come up and seems to be uh resistant to

54:01

vaccination um although that's not you know widely uh uh it's not widely in circulation

54:08

that virus isn't isn't passing around um at present so you know so we're keeping our eye on you know certain

54:15

things you know there's a new Ebola I mean we're just we got problems

54:20

um so I don't want to say that it's over I think that

54:28

what we're seeing socially and this is a global issue

54:34

is a pushback against going back to

54:40

pre-covered conditions people are saying no

54:45

whether that's a pushback to going to the office whether that's a pushback to

54:51

um you know uh the way our our medical situation is there's there's a pushback

54:59

and you're seeing the old system fighting the new system

55:05

so there are very conservative groups conservative being right status quo and

55:11

and and and so forth or even neo-fascist groups as we just saw in Italy that are

55:18

like no no no we want it to be the way it was and then you see these younger people

55:24

primarily saying no we're going to have something different so I think

55:31

you know again we're not out far enough that we can see what it's

55:37

going to look like but I think we're going to see this as a watershed moment I don't know which way it's going to go

55:42

you know it could clamp down I mean the United States it's going very conservative at the moment and maybe

55:48

that'll change and maybe that won't in other places it's going in a very

55:53

different direction and so we just have to we just have to see but we did see during the pandemic a rise in trauma a

56:00

rise in um addiction arise in relapses arise in overdoses huge amount of

56:07

Overdose there's over a hundred thousand um in the United States in one year alone during the pandemic so

56:15

we have an opportunity here that's what I want to you know focus on we have an opportunity here

56:21

as we're coming you know through the pandemic to change the way we

56:29

are together in community and frankly what we fund what we value

56:35

is what we fund and right now here it's not mental

56:41

health that's not what we're funding it's not potable water it's you know other things and so that's what we have

56:49

to look at in in each of our communities is what is it that we're going to put

56:55

our efforts and our connection and our values in and and that's where the money would flow

57:03

awesome well said thank you um how can people connect with you

57:08

uh I am on is right Instagram Facebook LinkedIn

57:17

I also have a website constanceharf.com and I have a um column on psychology

57:24

today online and you can check me out any of those places

57:29

beautiful thank you so much for coming on the show and I'll make sure that all those links to connect with you are in

57:35

the show notes but thank you so much for coming on much for having me appreciate

57:40

it awesome wonderful well that is it for this episode of True Hope cast the official podcast of true hope Canada I'll put the links to connect in the

57:49

show notes don't forget to subscribe if you haven't yet but that's it for this week we will see you next week foreign

57:54

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