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So, it's been uh just shy of five years since my mom's life was ended through Canada's assisted dying program. Uh in

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Canada, we call it medical assistance and dying. And she wasn't terminal. She had no diagnosis other than a concussion

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and depression. And our family was just really concerned that the law wasn't followed. Um and so what happened was

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that we launched the first investigation, police investigation into a made death in Canadian history.

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[music]

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Welcome back to True Hope Cast, the official podcast of True Hope Canada, where we explore the psychological and physiological foundations of mental

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health, challenge conventional thinking, and seek a deeper understanding of what true healing really means. It's been a little while since our last episode. We

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54 seconds

took a well-deserved break over the summer, but we're back. We're refreshed, re-energized, and ready to bring you some incredible guests, fascinating

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1 minute, 1 second

conversations, and powerful stories. And we're kicking things off with an episode that raises some deeply important questions about mental health, medical

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1 minute, 10 seconds

ethics, patients rights, and the future of healthcare in Canada. Our guest today is Alicia Duncan, Canadian author and passionate mental health advocate whose

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1 minute, 18 seconds

work explores the intersection of health care, ethics, and human rights. Alicia has become a prominent voice in the national and international conversation

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1 minute, 26 seconds

surrounding medical assistance in dying or maid. Her advocacy has taken her before parliamentary committees in Canada and the UK and her story has been

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1 minute, 35 seconds

featured on CBC's The Fifth Estate and the BBC documentary Better Off Dead.

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She's also the author of The Other Side of the Straight Jacket, a daughter's story of mental illness and assisted dying, a deeply personal and

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thought-provoking account of her mother's experience that raises difficult questions about mental health care, informed consent, and the systems designed to protect vulnerable people.

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And joining Alicia for today's conversation is a familiar voice to many of you, David Stefen. He'll be stepping in as the host today in this special

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2 minutes, 7 seconds

episode. It's a powerful conversation that challenges us to think critically about health care, compassion, and what it truly means to give people hope and

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meaningful choices. So, without further ado, here's David Stefen with Alicia Duncan. Enjoy the show. Welcome, Alicia.

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You've got a phenomenal story to tell.

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2 minutes, 26 seconds

We are honored to have you on the True Hope Cast. Before we get into a lot of the activity that you've had, it sounds

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2 minutes, 35 seconds

like across the world, um the change that you're helping to incite, which is definitely much needed. Anybody who's jumping on the podcast right now, you're

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going to want to stick around for this one for sure. Alicia has got some phenomenal stuff that she's doing, and she has an amazing story to tell that ultimately will impact everyone here

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that's watching from Canada. But before we get into the details, before we get into the book that you that you've written that your travelings, your

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interviews across the world, would you tell us a little bit about who you are as a as an individual and and who your mother was as well?

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3 minutes, 11 seconds

Well, thank you so much for having me. Um, I am an interior designer by trade

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and I had no desire to ever write a book um or really, you know, thought that I

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3 minutes, 26 seconds

would launch into a world of mental health advocacy, but um here I am. So, it's been uh just shy of five years

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3 minutes, 33 seconds

since my mom's life was ended through Canada's assisted dying program. Uh in Canada, we call it medical assistance

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3 minutes, 40 seconds

and dying. And she wasn't terminal. She had no diagnosis other than a concussion and depression. And our family was just

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3 minutes, 48 seconds

really concerned that the law wasn't followed. Um, and so what happened was that we launched the first

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3 minutes, 57 seconds

investigation, police investigation into a maid death in Canadian history.

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All right. you would for those that that may not be fully aware of what MADE is and I know that you mentioned what the

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acronym stands for medical assistance in dying or in death and that that's something that's a little more exclusive to Canada.

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Do you want to fill the audience in on what that is, what that's looking like, how long it's been around.

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Of course. Um, so my family didn't know, I didn't know, um, that in 2016, Canada

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legalized assisted dying. So if your death was deemed to be reasonably foreseeable, uh, and there was no relief

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4 minutes, 39 seconds

to suffering in the context of end of life that you could have a doctor assist your death. Um, and that was brought through a charter challenge. So, you

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know, international listeners, our our system is very different here in Canada, but essentially some uh there was a charter challenge against the government

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and said that it was their right to choose how they die on their terms. Um, and it was legalized in 2016. 5 years

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later, there was another challenge against our government. And essentially what happened was that it was uh two

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people actually who felt that they were being discriminated against because they weren't essentially dying fast enough.

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And Canada actually expanded our assisted dying law at that point in time. So people who weren't dying

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imminently who maybe had um you know a condition that they were suffering from that they eventually might die from

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5 minutes, 39 seconds

would also be allowed to have assistance um from a doctor to prematurely end their life. What we are seeing now in

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Canada is that because of in my opinion the weak legislation

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um permissive doctors and nurse practitioners are approving their

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patients to die based on poverty um lack of you know or accessibility to timely

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health care which we believe was the case with our mom and our family is just sharing what happened to to us to our

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mom through the experience um you or hoping that this experience can shift the way that we are looking at the

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system that we trust or that we're meant to trust.

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Okay. So, initially maid is put into place a decade ago. Yes.

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And it's it's done so to to help people basically end their existence here.

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if they're in suffering and there's a foreseeable death. Is that correct?

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Correct. And I think if you if we can separate the the theory versus what's

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happening in practice, that would be really valuable, you know, as you're listening to this conversation that we're going to be having because in

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theory, this was designed to relieve suffering in the context of end of life.

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and the narrative that we hear often in the media um and for a lot of families who have gone through this with their

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loved one. They have a family member with a terminal illness like cancer and they've gone through chemotherapy and there's no chance and they're in

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7 minutes, 25 seconds

paliotative care and we I think generally in society we think of course

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we don't want anyone to suffer. Um I am not conscientiously opposed to assisted dying. I know some people are and I am not. Um it's okay to have different

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beliefs as we look at the system but for me you know when I heard about assisted dying for the very first time um it was

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actually through the lens of Oregon in the United States uh that I first heard about it many years ago. I thought of course everyone should have autonomy to

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be able to choose um how they die on their terms without actually understanding

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what that meant, what the implications were because of the way that the legislation

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is written though is that first of all it is solely focused on autonomy.

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um and under this lens of where assessors believe some believe that just

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the desire to die should be enough. Um and so when you meet those assessors who

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are reviewing patients who have complex mental health issues, um eating disorders,

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um I mean pover, you know, they're facing poverty, they're having to choose between living in a home that's

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accessible for them in their wheelchair or being unhoused. I mean, these aren't real choices. And so this

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uh argument of autonomy for me breaks down. My mom was starving herself

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because she was mentally ill. She thought that her food was poisoned. Um she was afraid to go outside. We found

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9 minutes, 14 seconds

journal entries after her death. She thought she was going to be snipered if she went outside and she wasn't able to

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get proper treatment. So for her, you know, she said to us before she died, I don't want to die, but I can't live like

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this anymore. And to me, she didn't have this choice. And so any I'm kind of going off on a tangent here.

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No, and [clears throat] that's perfectly fine. And I appreciate I think everybody would appreciate and has appreciated the the clarity that you've given the basis

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surrounding Maiden. And we could could continue down that, but let's let's circle back to your mom there. It sounds like your mother was really reaching out

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with a cry for help and saying, "I don't want to die, but I can't live like this." I I I I I would have to say that

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many of us have found ourselves in a whether in a very microscopic, you know, little snippet of our lives or sometimes

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a little bit more on a macro where it becomes chronic. I think we found ourselves in those types of situations where it's just like, "Oh, take me out of my misery, but I don't want to die. I

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have no desire. I want to live. I want to see my grandchildren. I want to see like there's so much beauty around us. I I want to live for those around me. I I

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want to continue to enjoy uh everything that we've been blessed with. But in this current circumstance, I just can't

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do it. I something has to change. That to me that's a cry for help. And and I can I can say, you know, last week I had

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a dental infection, a tooth infection, and it fired up my whole trigeminal nerve on my on my left side. And as soon as it fired up and I had pain go through

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the whole side of my face, I'm like, I can't handle this. Literally, I can't handle this. Now, if you took me in that moment and you wanted me to make a a

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proper decision surrounding, you know, life ahead of me, I wouldn't have been able to make it. I said,

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there's no way I can I can do this. I'm crying for help.

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Yes. Let's let's actually take that example because I think you know it's it

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sounds conspiratorial when we talk about these things because it is so outlandish

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but imagine you went to a doctor and coupled with this tooth infection you

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had um chronic depression and you were in a very very low state and you were

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considering ending your own life, you could go to a permissive assessor who believes that just the desire to end

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your life should be enough. And so they believe they're helping you and they would say to you, you have a really

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terrible infection [clears throat] and we can offer you antibiotics which will get rid of this infection.

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[clears throat]

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However, if you don't take antibiotics for this infection, presumably your life is reason your

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death is reasonably foreseeable because this infection will eventually kill you because there is no um mandated

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term of what reasonably foreseeable means. We can get further into this. Some assessors believe it's six months. Some assessors believe it's five years.

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And there's no definition in the law of what that means. You could actually be

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approved to die under Canada's Track 1 program and there's no longer a an assessment period tied to that. So you

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could be provided made within 24 hours because of a tooth infection. And if any

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family wanted to challenge that, it just has to be in the opinion of the doctor or the nurse practitioner who assessed

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you that your death was reasonably foreseeable and then there can be no legal action taken against it.

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Okay, this is how outrageous the system is.

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Let's continue to flush this out before we get into the the nuts and bolts of what you're doing and and and the profound the the profound activity that

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you're involved in, which is very honorable. But before we get into that, let's let's flush this out a little bit more. So,

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so in assets, and you use the terminology permissive assessor, meaning a doctor who's able to

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qualify it, and they're very liberal in the sense of, hey, we're going to we're going to be very permissive regardless

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of we're not going to be stringent and say you got to meet exactly this criteria, this criteria. When we talk about foreseeability, I was thinking about this before I

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jumped on the podcast and I thought about the the whole aspect of reasonable for foreseeability.

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We're all going to die at some point in time. And so is it a foreseeable death within 8 days,

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8 weeks, 8 months, 8 years? If if you have somebody who's 65 years old, well, their death is for foreseeable within the next two decades.

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there's a really good chance that they're probably going to die. Like, so it's completely subjective this whole process.

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Yes. based on who the assessor is that they can there's a lot of wiggle room here that they can basically

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convince and I'll say convince and I'm going to use this um uh well I'm going to leave it at convince because

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sometimes my understanding is they are doing that and and I'll use my own personal example uh the only example that I'm aware of personally with a

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family member where there was some influencing taking place that led to

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made. And so they convince somebody based on this very loose criteria,

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very subjective reasoning, and now they have somebody in a vulnerable state that is going to allow

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for themselves to die prematurely based on the current cir circumstances, mental state that they found themselves in. That's what we're seeing.

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That's that's exactly what we are seeing in Canada. Um and you know a lot of the

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work that I do internationally even um where there are laws where it is written in that that it must be a six-month

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terminal diagnosis or 12 months. There are many cases where people are given a terminal diagnosis of you know and a

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projected lifespan of maybe four to five months and five years later they're still here. And so we we understand that

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there's mistakes and and we're and doctors are humans and we all have different belief sets. Um and so really

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where my work hinges on is where are the gaps in our system.

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Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it's ethical or moral. Where is the oversight on the doctors and the

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assessors that are permissive and people that maybe need help to get a wheelchair ramp or not provided death as an

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alternative? And I really just want to provide a lens for people to look at the system, right? Like

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let me interject real quick. I'm going to interject. Yes, you just cited what sounded like it could be a hypothetical example, but I I

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think there's more depth to it about somebody wanting a wheelchair ramp and them being offered maid.

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Yes. I mean, this was a very public Canadian story. This actually um did happen to a person. She was featured

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alongside um uh I was in a BBC documentary um by Liz Carr called Better Off Dead. And there was a story of a

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former Olympian who um parolympian and so who was offered maid and they were

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just looking to get a ramp to go into their home. We're seeing this across many different areas. Veterans Affairs has offered uh I believe it's 20

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different people on recorded that they have proof that someone was saying, "Well, it's better to blow your brains out or better than blowing your

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brains out." And these are people that are coming in for treatment for PTSD and depression and anxiety and and they're they're suffering and they're wanting

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17 minutes, 36 seconds

help. Other cases in the media where uh a woman went to Vancouver General Hospital because she was suicidal and

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wanted help and someone offered her medical assistance and dying instead.

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You know, we have the society where we're promoting suicide prevention in one hand, but then depending on who you

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get when you go to the hospital or to your doctor's office, um you might be offered to end your life

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instead of getting help. It's it's unbelievable really. So there there's an actual promotion behind this and that's my personal experience as well is that's

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what it appears to be that there's something going on that would most people won't promote something unless

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there's an incentive to do so and you know you can say there's a one-off here or there but when you see it systemic

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throughout an entire system you have to begin asking the questions there because I without saying names and

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identifying any individuals um a a family member of um of mine, somewhat [clears throat]

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distant family member, um ended up wanting to opt for maid. And there was a foreseeable death. It may have been

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within a few years. It may have been half a decade. It may have been 8 months. There was a health condition.

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There was, you know, necessary medical intervention, oxygen, that type of thing that was necessary. And this particular

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individual was struggling mentally and decided to do maid. Well, family gathers around, they say the goodbyes.

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This individual says, "You know what? You know what? This life's worth living.

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I don't want me." And when the doctor was informed of that, the doctor actually got mad at her

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and seemed to have some sort of vested interest in her continuing on with the maid, which eventually she did. It was only a few

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week blip. But this doctor of hers that she saw on a semi-regular basis actually had a a vested interest, an

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emotional attachment to her performing maid. So much so that he actually got angry when she said, "I

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don't want to end my life. I can't figure it out." Do you do you know what's going on in the system as to why there seems to be a promotion around

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this? why you have certain assessors that are actually emotionally invested in moving forward with this agenda.

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Well, first of all, I I mean, okay, so there's there's one aspect that I discuss in my book um that was recently

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released. And what I do know um based on a parliamentary budget office report

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that came out the year that my mom died, they actually calculated the cost savings providing maid versus

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paliotative care alone. And this was the same year that um Canada's original maid

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program expanded to now have for people whose death was not reasonably foreseeable. So in Canada there's track

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one which is reasonably foreseeable, track two not reasonably foreseeable and I'm like very generalized like over um

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overview. So in that report they were only looking at maid versus paliotative

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care alone and even they said that this report was grossly underestimated but the net cost savings was $86.9 million

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and this is public information. You can just do a quick Google search. I have a link and resources to it in my book um and on my website for anyone who wants

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to look deeper into this. But we do know that the government does save money by providing medical assistance in dying to

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people and the majority of a person's uh medical lifetime costs are in the final

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stages of their life. It is very expensive to provide proper paliotative care. So I do think that there is a

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government incentive to save money in this way. I I'm not saying whether this is good or bad, but it just is facts.

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They do save money on this. Um so that that's one aspect of it. The other

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aspect that I lightly touch on my book um and that fellow colleagues and I um

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raise our concerns is that there actually isn't any psychiatric assessment done on the people who are providing maid and there are

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peer-reviewed articles on healthc care serial killers. There are people who are

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uh very passionate about this work that they're doing. You can see them speak in presentations and on media about how

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this is the most meaningful work they do and their eyes light up.

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And you could look at that through the lens of compassion. They just believe that they are being compassionate and helping their patients do what they want to do. But when you also look at the

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system that isn't requiring um proper psychiatric assessment on the assessors, it is possible that there are

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people working in the system that do have e evil motivations. And I, you

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know, I I can't speak specifically to that case with your family member, but you could see

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how if someone were practicing within the medical system under the guise of their medical badge um that maybe they

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are predatory and they do have an emotional investment and they are thrilled about ending someone's life.

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And so um it it's complex. It is really complex.

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Very, very interesting. It' be interesting to see the behind the-scenes training that takes place on all of this, especially if the government is incentivized over the fact that they're

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saving millions of dollars that they can now, you know, use the that money elsewhere for whatever other things that they're going to do.

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Um, [clears throat] can I can I actually say something to that? So, in May, I actually testified for the second time to the special joint committee on

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medical assistance and dying. So, it's a special joint committee that the government of Canada created. Um, it's the committee is called AMAD. It stands

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for nothing. They get random letters assigned, which drives my OCD crazy. Um, [laughter] but they so there were

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members of KAP, which is the Canadian Association made assessors and providers who were testifying. So, there was 44

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witnesses. I was one of them. and they were actually being asked to provide

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their training curriculum and they refused. And this is a government-funded organization

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that trains assessors in Canada and work alongside organizations

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that are working on lobbying and expanding assisted dying. And I think that's really um I mean for me that's a

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huge red flag where you actually have to be a member in order to say that. It was Professor Josson Landowney who actually

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said that we basically the general public wouldn't understand and so they didn't want to release it. And one of

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the arguing I believe it was a senator said like we are all politicians, doctors, lawyers and you're saying that we wouldn't understand this literature.

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And I it was very concerning as me as I listened to this testimony and of how protective they are being of this system.

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Regardless of how complex the literature may be, generally that would still be an open

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book with the caveat that when it's presented, this is hard to understand for the common lay person or apologies.

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But when you use that as an excuse to withhold entirely something from

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um the review of the public, I think that's a key indicator. I I'm not sure if we can chalk it up as anything else,

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but that's a key indicator that they're hiding something, that there's something unourred when it comes to interfacing with the Canadian public and that if it

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became well uh if it became public knowledge, there would be an outcry. And so they're hiding something. That's the only thing I can think of.

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You know, similarly, when our family launched um the first police investigation into a maid death in

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Canada, it was the Fraser Health Authority, the health authority with which and my mom died that refused to release her critical assessment records.

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26 minutes, 31 seconds

They cited privacy concerns. The police weren't able to get um access to these assessment records. Uh I as the executive of her estate was also not

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able to get access to these. I went through the privacy commission hearing process which is almost two years and

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they upheld Fraser Health's decision to refuse the records. And when I was called to testify to the AMAD committee

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back in May, I went back to the health authority under a section 25 public interest override because I had been

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called to speak to a federal joint committee to speak about my experience with my mother's maid death. and this

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would provide more information and still they denied me. There is no higher threshold in Canadian government and I

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believe that if they had nothing to hide that they would just give this to me.

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And that is not just my theory. I know families who have requested their loved ones assessment records and other health

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authorities have given them the assessment records. the health authority owns these records and has the abil

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ability to give them to me if they want to.

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Okay. All right. We're we're [clears throat] going to jump into your story right away here now so that that I think we provided a good basis. Um but

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just before we do that, I I think we need to kind of solidify something here. Okay.

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And [clears throat] I'm going to I'm going to use a contrasting example. We're a mental health organization.

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28 minutes, 2 seconds

We've helped over 100,000 people um in the last three decades come off of psychiatric meds and get very well using

28:10

28 minutes, 10 seconds

proper nutrition that their body needed all along. And I'm not saying this to put in a plug. This is a perfect contrast in relation to what we're seeing here. After the first studies

28:19

28 minutes, 19 seconds

came out in relation to the supplementation, the natural supplementation that we're using vitamins and minerals just in a balanced

28:26

28 minutes, 26 seconds

effective form. The first studies come out showing that they're over three times more effective than your standard anti-depressants in relation to the

28:34

28 minutes, 34 seconds

treatment of bipolar disorder. Literally the next day, I mean, National News covers it. This is back in October of

28:41

28 minutes, 41 seconds

2000. Health Canada comes and launches an attack on us and would spend over the next decade millions of dollars of taxpayer money to try to shut us down.

28:52

28 minutes, 52 seconds

They were never successful. We beat them in the courts. It was a big ordeal.

29:00

29 minutes

The Canadian government was willing to fund millions of dollars on one side to shutting down a solution

29:08

29 minutes, 8 seconds

that would make people want to live, that would improve their quality of life, improve their overall mental well-being. They're doing everything

29:15

29 minutes, 15 seconds

they can to shut it down. But then on the other side, they're offering

29:23

29 minutes, 23 seconds

this maid program that they're actually pushing to cause people to prematurely die. So you have on one side, you have a

29:32

29 minutes, 32 seconds

solution that they should have embraced, Health Canada. If they were actually looking out for the health of Canadians, they would have been embracing this solution. But on the other side, now we see maid being promoted.

29:41

29 minutes, 41 seconds

And I have to ask the question when I look at that type of of of contrasting situations

29:49

29 minutes, 49 seconds

and this may seem really conspiratorial, but are we living in a death cult where death is actually being advanced for a

29:58

29 minutes, 58 seconds

particular motive or reason rather than promoting the solutions? Cheap solutions by the way. It would have saved and and

30:05

30 minutes, 5 seconds

and it can't be argued in this sense as well between the contrasting points here that it's about saving money because the fact of the matter is is that we've

30:14

30 minutes, 14 seconds

pitched this to the government numerous times and we would save taxpayer money.

30:20

30 minutes, 20 seconds

We would save the medical system I if if our solutions were promoted as mainstream and they don't have to be

30:27

30 minutes, 27 seconds

ours. Just take the information, take what we've discovered, vitamins and minerals put in this particular form and

30:34

30 minutes, 34 seconds

this balance, and it creates this scenario where mental illness disappears for the vast majority of people. Far less expensive than pharmaceutical

30:43

30 minutes, 43 seconds

medications, far less than follow-up psychiatric treatments and and counseling and psychotherapy and all that type of stuff. It would save the

30:51

30 minutes, 51 seconds

medical system billions of dollars a year.

30:56

30 minutes, 56 seconds

And yet, so it it can't be an argument over saving money that solely that maid is being promoted because the Canadian

31:03

31 minutes, 3 seconds

government has already been proposed and we're just probably one of many that have proposed solutions that would save money, improve quality of

31:12

31 minutes, 12 seconds

life, eliminate a lot of chronic disease, and people would live better lives. They would actually become um

31:19

31 minutes, 19 seconds

more prosperous, which would generate more tax revenue, and so economically everything would look better. And yet

31:26

31 minutes, 26 seconds

they suppress all of that and offer made. It seems like we're living in a death cult. [snorts]

31:34

31 minutes, 34 seconds

So first of all, when I listen to these things that you are saying, um I so I

31:41

31 minutes, 41 seconds

have ADHD and uh one of my superpowers is connection and pattern recognition.

31:48

31 minutes, 48 seconds

Um, I solely believe that it has been through proper nutrition that has actually helped my

31:58

31 minutes, 58 seconds

brain with OCD, ADHD, and my PTSD. Um, so I think the work that you are doing is absolutely incredible.

32:06

32 minutes, 6 seconds

What I picked out of that is who you might be able to answer these questions.

32:13

32 minutes, 13 seconds

Who has the lobbying power? The pharmaceutical if you could create a model. So, say the pharmaceutical companies could have a proprietary

32:21

32 minutes, 21 seconds

trademark on these vitamins and minerals and they could make more money on those

32:28

32 minutes, 28 seconds

than we might actually see a system that would cause change. And I think that there's other, you know, documentaries

32:36

32 minutes, 36 seconds

when we're looking at the American food chain and and who who's making the money. You follow the money. Who's

32:44

32 minutes, 44 seconds

making the money on this? The pharmaceutical companies are making money on providing medications that are treating symptoms

32:52

32 minutes, 52 seconds

and they're not getting to the root cause. With anti-depressants, which I was prescribed right before my mom died,

32:59

32 minutes, 59 seconds

which took me for a person who was only on for a few short months, took me 18 months with a very unsuccessful um

33:08

33 minutes, 8 seconds

terrible experience trying to get off of them. And it was through uh psilocybin, plant medicine, through diet, through

33:15

33 minutes, 15 seconds

ketamine, through all of these alternative therapies that I was actually able to heal my brain. Um

33:26

33 minutes, 26 seconds

it's it's so difficult for me because who has the power, you know, do the pharmaceutical companies have the power

33:34

33 minutes, 34 seconds

and are those the ones that are lobbying our legislation?

33:38

33 minutes, 38 seconds

It's so it's so nearsighted if we were able to zoom out and talk about all of these things that you were saying. The projected costs that we would save and

33:46

33 minutes, 46 seconds

and productive society, but right now immediately the people who have the power and are making the most money are the ones who are working on keeping us sick.

33:56

33 minutes, 56 seconds

Exactly.

33:58

33 minutes, 58 seconds

Unlike the agricultural industry, um you're dealing with livestock. When you have healthy livestock, you make more

34:06

34 minutes, 6 seconds

money. But in relation to humans, when you have sick humans, there's a particular industry that makes a lot of

34:15

34 minutes, 15 seconds

money. And it's by creating lifetime customers, which is marketing 101. As soon as you understand the the value of

34:23

34 minutes, 23 seconds

a potent particular individual and approximately how much profit they're going to bring you year after year and if you can get them to become a lifetime

34:32

34 minutes, 32 seconds

customer, you can actually begin to calculate uh and project long-term profits based off a particular class of

34:39

34 minutes, 39 seconds

society. And so if you can keep a particular class sick and just treat the symptoms infantitum until they die and

34:47

34 minutes, 47 seconds

they will die a premature death unfortunately because of the the complications that come from long-term medication

34:54

34 minutes, 54 seconds

then [clears throat] yeah it's business 101 and that's what we're seeing and I don't think it's just about lobbying anymore. I think it's actually built

35:02

35 minutes, 2 seconds

into the system. I think when we look at it, Health Canada is really just a front for the pharmaceutical industry, just like the FDA in the US is a front for

35:12

35 minutes, 12 seconds

the pharmaceutical industry. And that's why there's a revolving door between CEOs of of pharmaceutical companies going into the FDA and people coming out

35:20

35 minutes, 20 seconds

of the FDA and and taking high role positions within the pharmaceutical companies. It's it's they're really one and the same. So it's almost like the

35:29

35 minutes, 29 seconds

pharmaceutical industry has a stronghold built in to our governments

35:35

35 minutes, 35 seconds

that facilitate Oh go I say this is why I think so many people do have sanctuary trauma. I know our family who trusted

35:44

35 minutes, 44 seconds

the government and the health care system and then took our mom from us. you know, we believe that my mom used maid to commit

35:53

35 minutes, 53 seconds

suicide, which is very different than a person using maid to end their life in the context of end of life. Um, and then

36:00

36 minutes

when we asked for answers and accountability and even to for someone to look at this, um, we were provided

36:09

36 minutes, 9 seconds

absolutely no answers. Roadblock after roadblock. So, I can't trust the system.

36:14

36 minutes, 14 seconds

They have proven to me repeatedly that they can't be trusted. And because I speak out now, I'm continuously

36:21

36 minutes, 21 seconds

contacted by family members where it might not be concerning maid, but it is medical negligence and and wanting

36:28

36 minutes, 28 seconds

answers and paperwork being lost and and you know, how do you trust a system that

36:36

36 minutes, 36 seconds

is actively keeping us sick or we have to wait 12 months to see a specialist? I just waited almost two years to see a

36:45

36 minutes, 45 seconds

specialist, an ENT. I've been having chronic ear pain, you know, and I've waited almost two years just to see a

36:52

36 minutes, 52 seconds

specialist. That's unacceptable. That's unacceptable.

36:57

36 minutes, 57 seconds

One of my fellow advocates said to me one time, "If you had to wait as long to receive maid as it did to receive actual

37:05

37 minutes, 5 seconds

care, I think the maid numbers would be much lower." Um, it's it's disturbing to say the least.

37:15

37 minutes, 15 seconds

Okay, we're going to jump into your family story. We're going to jump into what brought you here today as to what you're doing. But before we do so, one more question.

37:25

37 minutes, 25 seconds

Yes. [clears throat] You mentioned made numbers.

37:28

37 minutes, 28 seconds

I know I was quoting made numbers when I was on tour back in spring of 2025. I was using, I believe, the 2024 numbers.

37:40

37 minutes, 40 seconds

What are the maid numbers today? What are we seeing in Canada? because at that point in time it was about one in 20

37:48

37 minutes, 48 seconds

deaths in all of Canada could be allotted to maid has it changed at all since since I was citing those

37:56

37 minutes, 56 seconds

numbers so the percentages are um like federally across Canada is still around 5% in you

38:04

38 minutes, 4 seconds

know if you're looking at specific regions Quebec is much higher um Vancouver Island in British Columbia they have an elderly population I'm

38:12

38 minutes, 12 seconds

assuming that's why maybe they have higher numbers as well Uh I was speaking to um an academic the other day and they

38:19

38 minutes, 19 seconds

said there's actually a pocket in Quebec um where it's 14%. So but just average across Canada I think we're seeing around 5%.

38:29

38 minutes, 29 seconds

Canada's official reporting is always about one year behind. Um but it's projected that this past summer we

38:37

38 minutes, 37 seconds

reached um since the inception of medical assistance and dying in 2016 um over 100,000 Canadians have ended their life through um through this program.

38:48

38 minutes, 48 seconds

Wow. Yeah. It's unbelievable.

38:52

38 minutes, 52 seconds

It's a bit shocking when you actually start to to lay out what the numbers are and realize every 20 deaths in Canada,

38:59

38 minutes, 59 seconds

at least one of them is coming through maid out of every 20 deaths. And it's interesting to me that you bring up

39:08

39 minutes, 8 seconds

Vancouver Island. I knew about the the statistic with Quebec at that time. I was citing 6% for Quebec, 5% in general

39:16

39 minutes, 16 seconds

across the board uh in Canada. It's interesting about Vancouver Island. I'm betting if we had access to timelines, we would also see that it's around this

39:24

39 minutes, 24 seconds

time of year that you're probably going to see a higher prevalence out on the island of maid dust. As soon as it

39:31

39 minutes, 31 seconds

starts to get gloomy, overcast, cloudy, I bet that that's going to push people into that that place. I'm not sure if

39:39

39 minutes, 39 seconds

there is access to that type of information or not.

39:42

39 minutes, 42 seconds

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Vancouver Island um is actually one of the sunniest places in BC, so I don't know if that argument would hold up. maybe

39:50

39 minutes, 50 seconds

Vancouver uh is glooier but um yeah I I actually don't know if there is any studies that have been done on um that I

39:59

39 minutes, 59 seconds

think in British Columbia from what I know I um anyway there there's a couple of very permissive doctors that are in

40:09

40 minutes, 9 seconds

British Columbia uh which might be a part of the reason um and also just our liberal our general liberal uh views in

40:17

40 minutes, 17 seconds

society here in British Columbia as Well, so yeah, I I'm I know that there's other smarter people who have researched this

40:26

40 minutes, 26 seconds

that are better to talk about the subject on stats.

40:30

40 minutes, 30 seconds

All right. So [clears throat] tell us a little bit about the family dynamics, your life, your your mother's

40:38

40 minutes, 38 seconds

life, that type of thing. Just to to give people an understanding of of what type of scenario has brought you to

40:46

40 minutes, 46 seconds

where you are today in advocating and educating and inciting change in relation to what's taking place with

40:53

40 minutes, 53 seconds

Maiden Canada. But what was first of all, what was life like growing up? How many siblings, family life? Who is your mother as an individual?

41:03

41 minutes, 3 seconds

Yeah, I so my sister and I, we are just about two years apart and we grew up in

41:11

41 minutes, 11 seconds

just outside of Vancouver. So we we grew up on a private lake which sounds quite posh and it was really lovely actually.

41:17

41 minutes, 17 seconds

My my parents were high school sweethearts. They met when they were 13 and 15. They grew up in Langley which is about a 45minute drive from where I grew up. And it was a really happy childhood.

41:29

41 minutes, 29 seconds

We spent um you know I I share some stories in my book about you know we my parents' friends would come camp on the

41:37

41 minutes, 37 seconds

lawn all weekend and we would have these like endless bonfires and parties and we were just these carefree kids running barefoot and playing in the bush and it

41:46

41 minutes, 46 seconds

was uh it was just really amazing. Um my mom was a psychiatric nurse so she

41:53

41 minutes, 53 seconds

graduated early from high school. She was very smart, went into psychiatric nursing and loved her job. She she was

42:01

42 minutes, 1 second

really passionate about supporting people through their um mental illness challenges and she you know she taught cognitive behavioral therapy in the

42:09

42 minutes, 9 seconds

community and and loved loved her patients and shared stories about um you know obviously with confidentiality but

42:18

42 minutes, 18 seconds

just these general stories about you know how curious the mind is. Um I when I was young uh she shared with me that

42:27

42 minutes, 27 seconds

one day she wanted to write a book called The Other Side of the Straight Jacket and this book was meant to be uh

42:35

42 minutes, 35 seconds

just a way for people to look beyond the diagnosis to see the real humans. U I think so often society judges people

42:43

42 minutes, 43 seconds

with mental illness and she she hated that really like she she loved her patients and she loved her

42:52

42 minutes, 52 seconds

work and so you know we joke that you know one day I would design the cover and when she retired she would have time to write this and anyway I had I had

43:01

43 minutes, 1 second

children young. I was in my early 20s when I had my two kids and she just loved being a grandma. She was a big

43:08

43 minutes, 8 seconds

kid. She, you know, was very playful and my kids absolutely adored her. She was very close with them. We talked almost

43:16

43 minutes, 16 seconds

every day. She was very involved in my kids' life. And at 59 years old, uh, for a person who loved to travel, she

43:23

43 minutes, 23 seconds

decided that she was going to retire and she was going to, you know, continue her travel. She she traveled a ton while she

43:30

43 minutes, 30 seconds

was still working. Um, but just was so excited to start traveling with my daughter, uh, who was, you know, coming into her teenage years. My mom and I had

43:39

43 minutes, 39 seconds

some amazing trips together. Um, and all of that ended uh on February 25th, 2020.

43:46

43 minutes, 46 seconds

She was in a minor car accident. My young daughter was in the car at the time. And

43:53

43 minutes, 53 seconds

what happened from that point? She had a minor concussion. My daughter was totally fine. The car did not have major

44:01

44 minutes, 1 second

damage to it. So, it's wasn't really it wasn't something to be concerned about, or so we thought.

44:08

44 minutes, 8 seconds

But that was the beginning of the unraveling. Uh a few weeks later we went into COVID lockdown and it was hard to

44:17

44 minutes, 17 seconds

get inperson care. Uh we weren't able to see my mom in person because of the concussion. It was really hard for her to look at screens or talk on the phone.

44:27

44 minutes, 27 seconds

So it was, you know, a lot of texting.

44:29

44 minutes, 29 seconds

And we didn't realize um that she was starting to lose weight, like a lot of weight.

44:37

44 minutes, 37 seconds

Uh, and so she started going to see her doctor and how it works in her health care system is that you get on a wait

44:47

44 minutes, 47 seconds

list to go see a specialist and you wait a few months to see that and then they do a test and they rule that one thing out and then you get put on another list about something that the doctor thinks

44:55

44 minutes, 55 seconds

it potentially could be and then you wait a few more months. And so the doctors had ruled out everything from cancer and fibromyalgia. They found that she had a parasite at one point which

45:03

45 minutes, 3 seconds

they treated but my mom was losing a lot of weight. Um my sister and I started

45:11

45 minutes, 11 seconds

speculating and this is about 18 months after the car accident that there was something psychological happening at this point.

45:21

45 minutes, 21 seconds

My mom was wearing all of her clothes inside out. She was wearing a visor. Her common law partner was living down in the basement because she couldn't stand

45:29

45 minutes, 29 seconds

smells. Um, but we were noticing contradictions in what she was saying.

45:35

45 minutes, 35 seconds

She would say one thing to me or a different thing to my sister and we were allowed to come into the house on Sundays.

45:43

45 minutes, 43 seconds

uh it was very guarded and um you know I go into much more detail

45:50

45 minutes, 50 seconds

in my book but what we now know what we um found through my mom's medical

45:57

45 minutes, 57 seconds

records that we do have is that my mom was severely restricting her um food intake. Uh I knew this from the care

46:06

46 minutes, 6 seconds

that I was able to help with. So her on Sunday she would call me um I was to pick up a specific or organic chicken

46:14

46 minutes, 14 seconds

from a specific grocery store with only certain spices. There was some yams.

46:18

46 minutes, 18 seconds

Everything had to be boiled, pureed, put into soups. She said that it was hurting to eat. Um and again, all the while

46:26

46 minutes, 26 seconds

claiming that she was eating, you know, 2,000 calories a day. However, it was

46:32

46 minutes, 32 seconds

noted in her um in her medical records a daily intake of what she was eating. And after her death, when I calculated that,

46:40

46 minutes, 40 seconds

she was actually only eating about 800 calories per day. So, she was severely restricting her diet. Um she had spent over $6,000 with a medical intuitive.

46:51

46 minutes, 51 seconds

So, for people that don't know what that is, essentially it's a psychic who is um giving you medical diagnosis. So this

46:58

46 minutes, 58 seconds

medical intuitive told her that all of her food had heavy metals in it. Um and so she was terrified. She was afraid of the food that she was eating.

47:10

47 minutes, 10 seconds

We believe that the concussion triggered a lifelong pattern of disordered eating.

47:15

47 minutes, 15 seconds

you know, through interviews that I have done from every, you know, from her her siblings growing up, past co-workers,

47:23

47 minutes, 23 seconds

um my dad who knew her all through her teenage years in the early 30s till they separated in in um around the time she was 40.

47:33

47 minutes, 33 seconds

We just didn't recognize it cuz it wasn't really ever severe. My mom was always a very thin person and

47:41

47 minutes, 41 seconds

conscientious of the way that she looked, but we just kind of call like in my book I call it Donnaisms. Her name was Donna. And it was just like quirky

47:49

47 minutes, 49 seconds

qualities about my mom. We thought it was because she was cheap that she wasn't ordering her own dinner and picking off of people's plates, you know, because I didn't have the lens of

47:57

47 minutes, 57 seconds

someone who understood disordered eating and eating disorders.

48:01

48 minutes, 1 second

Um, so that that really is kind of the buildup of what happened. And then

48:08

48 minutes, 8 seconds

everything went downhill very very quickly. We were sent a link by her common law partner uh on the medical

48:17

48 minutes, 17 seconds

assistance and dying program. We thought this was a cry for help uh went to have an intervention at her house only to find out she had gone to the hospital a

48:24

48 minutes, 24 seconds

few days prior and a psychiatrist that she used to work with by the way um had also had diagnosed her with a

48:32

48 minutes, 32 seconds

psychosmatic disorder saying that this was in her head at that point. her partner had taken control of her medications and wanted her to actually

48:42

48 minutes, 42 seconds

start following through with some of his recommended treatments which she did not like. She wanted to retain control. Um

48:50

48 minutes, 50 seconds

had the diagnosis reversed and then immediately went back into um making my mom feel comfortable uh according to her

48:58

48 minutes, 58 seconds

common law partner. And then the mate assessors got brought in. She was assessed. We found out she was going to die 2 days later. My sister and I went

49:07

49 minutes, 7 seconds

into crisis mode. We actually provided enough evidence to a provincial court judge to stop the original provision. We

49:15

49 minutes, 15 seconds

wanted her to have proper psychiatric assessment. Uh and that's when she attempted to take her own life.

49:21

49 minutes, 21 seconds

And so that is when the flags were actually um the red flags I think for

49:29

49 minutes, 29 seconds

the system came up. And it was only when she attempted to take her own life versus a doctor taking her life that the

49:37

49 minutes, 37 seconds

guards were put up and she was held involuntarily in the psychiatric unit that she once managed.

49:45

49 minutes, 45 seconds

Wow.

49:46

49 minutes, 46 seconds

Yeah. I know. I kind of I kind of went on there.

49:48

49 minutes, 48 seconds

No, no, no, no. There is some stuff to unpack there for sure. So there's So you end up with a she ends up with a concussion

49:56

49 minutes, 56 seconds

and we've seen this many times where often times we're working with people postconussion,

50:04

50 minutes, 4 seconds

not because they saw us as a a means to help heal the concussion, but often times there's different mental health

50:12

50 minutes, 12 seconds

aspects or even personality changes that that can occur from a concussion. So we have a concussion as a catalyst and now

50:20

50 minutes, 20 seconds

we see the the eating disorder really manifesting at this point in time which is only going to perpetuate the issue

50:29

50 minutes, 29 seconds

because now we have malnourishment when in reality to deal with the issue we needed more nourishment.

50:36

50 minutes, 36 seconds

When someone has a concussion they need more nourishment and so [clears throat] and it just continues to spiral up.

50:44

50 minutes, 44 seconds

There's things that that could have helped, but was she at all receiving any of the help that she needed that would

50:51

50 minutes, 51 seconds

have ever prevented her from getting to that point? Was the medical system offering anything that would have stopped it versus spiraling out of control?

51:01

51 minutes, 1 second

Yeah. I mean, obviously hindsight is is 2020 and she was doing what I think most

51:07

51 minutes, 7 seconds

Canadians do, is that you trust your doctor and you trust the system.

51:14

51 minutes, 14 seconds

And it did get to a point where there was no relief for her suffering. And my mom, who was a psychiatric nurse, was

51:21

51 minutes, 21 seconds

looking outside of the regular health care system. So, she was reaching out to a medical intuitive. Um, you know, she

51:28

51 minutes, 28 seconds

she was trying to find other ways to relieve her suffering through hypnotherapy and these other issues. I

51:34

51 minutes, 34 seconds

mean, I I don't believe she was aware that she had disordered eating. It was never formally diagnosed and it was only

51:42

51 minutes, 42 seconds

in retrospect that you know the light bulb came on you know a couple of years after she died of what was happening but

51:49

51 minutes, 49 seconds

even within that system you know my mom um my mom was always self-dagnosing right she was a nurse she was she was

51:57

51 minutes, 57 seconds

smart she was very intelligent um you know she had diagnosed herself with hypoglycemia years ago and and that was the justification of why she ate certain

52:05

52 minutes, 5 seconds

ways you know she couldn't have she couldn't eat chocolate or sugar because it, you know, gave her a stomach ache, but then she would eat Hawkins cheeses and Twizzlers when we would go on

52:14

52 minutes, 14 seconds

vacation, right? So, you know, again, like these quirky Donnaisms that we just thought like, okay, whatever, mom. Um,

52:22

52 minutes, 22 seconds

but within that, so my mom believed that her symptoms met the criteria of

52:29

52 minutes, 29 seconds

something called central sensitization syndrome. Um, and that's an umbrella term for things like fibromyalgia. she

52:36

52 minutes, 36 seconds

was having this tingling sensation all over her body. Um, but I do think it's really important and I get into this

52:43

52 minutes, 43 seconds

book my book or into this in my book as well is that she was prescribed at one point Laorazzipam and she became highly

52:52

52 minutes, 52 seconds

addicted to the Laorazzipam. The doctor weaned her her dose down from every day to once every 3 days. She

53:00

53 minutes

actually noted that she felt like she was having withdrawal symptoms, which we know when you were having withdrawal

53:08

53 minutes, 8 seconds

symptoms from something like laorazzipam that it can actually cause suicidal ideiation. And so there's many different layers in here. She had a traumatic

53:17

53 minutes, 17 seconds

brain injury. She had a lifelong pattern of disordered eating. She was losing control. She was using her food to try

53:24

53 minutes, 24 seconds

to help heal herself. She lost trust in the medical system. um became addicted to Laorazzipam. She actually called me

53:33

53 minutes, 33 seconds

to see if I would reach out to my ex-husband who was now living in Costa Rica to see if it was available over the counter there so she could get access to

53:41

53 minutes, 41 seconds

it. And like this was a woman who would use a peppermint roller for a headache instead of Tylenol. Like she never ever

53:49

53 minutes, 49 seconds

took medication when I was growing up, you know, she was kind of a woo person if if you will. Um, so you know, it is

53:59

53 minutes, 59 seconds

it's complex and I think that's what we need to look at with these systems is that it isn't just one thing. Often it's multi- layers of different things that

54:08

54 minutes, 8 seconds

we're looking at and the health care system isn't designed to actually get to the root cause. It's to prescribe drugs, right? And when I look at all those

54:16

54 minutes, 16 seconds

complexities, those are the things that should should have been examined. Like in contrast to

54:23

54 minutes, 23 seconds

maid, if somebody's wanting maid, they should first have somebody come in and assess the entirety of the situation.

54:31

54 minutes, 31 seconds

Look at those complexities. Look at all of the different factors that are taking place. Oh, wow. This individual's very underweight. What's going on there? Oh,

54:40

54 minutes, 40 seconds

we probably have a nourishment issue there, right? Oh, there there could be an addiction to the rasbum. There could be potential withdrawal effects that are

54:47

54 minutes, 47 seconds

taking playing into all of this that are causing Right. There's so many different complexities that that need to be taken into consideration. And that's that's

54:56

54 minutes, 56 seconds

the the thing that's popping up for me is was the medical system trying to examine all that prior to offering mate?

55:06

55 minutes, 6 seconds

No. And and furthermore, when my mom gave the assessing doctors permission to speak with us, we were flagging all of

55:14

55 minutes, 14 seconds

these conditions with them. And they told us that it is my mom's legal right to have medical assistance in dying. And what we didn't understand is that the

55:23

55 minutes, 23 seconds

law doesn't require the doctors to have any burden of proof. So like here's like one thing that just drives me crazy. My

55:32

55 minutes, 32 seconds

mom was continuously telling everyone that she had something called central sensitivity syndrome. It's central

55:39

55 minutes, 39 seconds

sensitization syndrome. But that mistake that she kept telling everyone was pared and even

55:47

55 minutes, 47 seconds

recorded on her vital statistics death certificate. You know, there's there was no burden of proof. My mom had an

55:54

55 minutes, 54 seconds

appointment with a specialist to determine whether or not this is something that was actually happening

56:02

56 minutes, 2 seconds

within her life and for treatment. And it was scheduled for 2 weeks after her death. And in her final interview in her medical records with a psychiatrist,

56:11

56 minutes, 11 seconds

they asked if she could get an appointment with that doctor today.

56:13

56 minutes, 13 seconds

Would it change anything? And she said no. And they released her from the involuntary psychiatric hold knowing she was going home to have made.

56:22

56 minutes, 22 seconds

It's disgusting. Yes, it is.

56:28

56 minutes, 28 seconds

So, I appreciate you going into what life looked like, you know, the beautiful woman that your mother was.

56:37

56 minutes, 37 seconds

Um, how did we get to the point so made happens

56:45

56 minutes, 45 seconds

at what point in time? Because we know is February 25th, correct? um 2020 that she had the car accident.

56:52

56 minutes, 52 seconds

Correct. And then she was euthanized on October 29th uh 2021. So 20 months

57:00

57 minutes

later. Um she was released from the psychiatric unit and provided made less

57:07

57 minutes, 7 seconds

than 4 hours later. It was a proc it was about three and a half hours after her release and we know that from the time stamp from when she was released um to the death certificate.

57:16

57 minutes, 16 seconds

Uh my my sister and I um actually I'm going to correct that. My partner and my

57:23

57 minutes, 23 seconds

sister's partner both received text messages from my mom's common law partner to let us know that our mom was dead and her body had been taken to a crematorium.

57:32

57 minutes, 32 seconds

No one from the health authority has ever to this day and next week is the 5-year anniversary. No one has ever reached out to our family.

57:45

57 minutes, 45 seconds

So you can imagine how traumatic that is. Um you know we had spent the

57:53

57 minutes, 53 seconds

last 5 days in hell. We had called the police for a wellness check who told us

58:01

58 minutes, 1 second

that we needed a court order. We went to the provincial courthouse and we got a warrant for her arrest under the mental under the mental health act so she could

58:10

58 minutes, 10 seconds

have a proper psychiatric assessment. We had enough evidence. you know, this wasn't just family members arbitrarily disagreeing with her decision for maid.

58:18

58 minutes, 18 seconds

That's not what it was at all. Um, she attempted to take her own life. She was sectioned in a hospital and then released. And the system that we thought

58:27

58 minutes, 27 seconds

would protect our mom and her suicidal state um actually helped her end her life. And my, you know, I I'll speak for

58:37

58 minutes, 37 seconds

myself. I went into a very very dark depression. Um, I was I had undiagnosed PTSD. I didn't realize that that's what

58:45

58 minutes, 45 seconds

it was at the time. I was having these relentless nightmares where everyone was dying around me. I couldn't escape the pain even in my sleep. And when we

58:54

58 minutes, 54 seconds

talked when you said that earlier, you know, the difference between wanting to die and just not wanting to live like

59:00

59 minutes

this anymore. It was one day um you know I was driving and going around a corner in the road and I just thought, "Oh, it

59:08

59 minutes, 8 seconds

would be so nice if my car just went off the road just so the pain would end." And you know, I was not suicidal but

59:18

59 minutes, 18 seconds

just didn't want to live anymore because I was in so much pain.

59:23

59 minutes, 23 seconds

um what we just couldn't fathom how she was approved and my sister who actually

59:31

59 minutes, 31 seconds

works for the RCMP brought home a binder of the criminal code and at this point I as the executive had gotten access to

59:39

59 minutes, 39 seconds

her medical records not the assessment records but the medical records and we started comparing and under any track

59:47

59 minutes, 47 seconds

track one or track two we could not determine how my mom was approved and so we built a case. We brought it to the

59:54

59 minutes, 54 seconds

Abbottzford police on February 14th, 2022. A week later, we were brought in for interviews and um

1:00:04

1 hour, 4 seconds

you know, we couldn't believe when they saw what we saw and they launched the first investigation.

1:00:10

1 hour, 10 seconds

That's when the advocacy journey took off. Um, Avis Favro, CTV national at the time, broke the story and we all of a

1:00:18

1 hour, 18 seconds

sudden were just thrown into this world of speaking about our story which,

1:00:27

1 hour, 27 seconds

[sighs] you know, in [gasps]

1:00:28

1 hour, 28 seconds

it's a double-edged sword because in a way like my it made my nightmare stop. I felt like I was helping like I was doing

1:00:37

1 hour, 37 seconds

something. Um, but on the other hand, it was it was retraumatizing every time we spoke about this. And again, I hadn't I

1:00:46

1 hour, 46 seconds

hadn't received a PTSD diagnosis yet. I didn't realize what was happening. Um,

1:00:54

1 hour, 54 seconds

and anyway, I just I've continued on on this journey. And it was u maybe a year into the advocacy that my mom started

1:01:03

1 hour, 1 minute, 3 seconds

visiting me in my dreams. And I'm I'm a deeply spiritual person. Um, and so for me, like it wasn't a dream.

1:01:13

1 hour, 1 minute, 13 seconds

It was like I was standing in the room with her and she was like, I get emotional about it. She was like, "You have to write the book. You have to

1:01:20

1 hour, 1 minute, 20 seconds

write the book." And that book, of course, was the other side of the straight jacket that she that we had talked about my whole life with her, the

1:01:28

1 hour, 1 minute, 28 seconds

book that she was going to write. And um, it was the worst thing I ever had to do. But it was it was so cathartic. I

1:01:36

1 hour, 1 minute, 36 seconds

spent three years writing this book and through that time, you know, traveling to the UK and the United States and talking about my concerns and really

1:01:46

1 hour, 1 minute, 46 seconds

processing what had happened. You know, there are there are scenes that I've recreated in the book that I don't remember, but I know that they happen

1:01:55

1 hour, 1 minute, 55 seconds

because I have timestamps with text messages between my sister and I. You know, PTSD trauma aside is fascinating the way that it works with the brain.

1:02:02

1 hour, 2 minutes, 2 seconds

But um yeah, it's really inspired me to look into nutrition and alternative

1:02:09

1 hour, 2 minutes, 9 seconds

therapies and like how do we support people in this way, especially as Canada is looking to expand

1:02:17

1 hour, 2 minutes, 17 seconds

made for mental illness as a sole condition. Um, recently legislation or the Liberal government had a press

1:02:26

1 hour, 2 minutes, 26 seconds

conference saying that they're not going to expand, which was set to happen on March 17th. Um, but they're looking to

1:02:34

1 hour, 2 minutes, 34 seconds

expand it in other ways for, you know, advanced requests for Alzheimer's and dementia.

1:02:39

1 hour, 2 minutes, 39 seconds

And I really just I I I need to share this story because

1:02:49

1 hour, 2 minutes, 49 seconds

two things can be true at once that we can have, you know, a system that people believe is great and provides autonomy,

1:02:57

1 hour, 2 minutes, 57 seconds

but on the other end of the same system, it can allow a woman who is 61 years old with disordered eating and a brain

1:03:04

1 hour, 3 minutes, 4 seconds

injury, who's mentally ill and not able to get help um access to end her life as well. And if you support one, you have to support both. And if you don't

1:03:12

1 hour, 3 minutes, 12 seconds

support one, then you need to do something about it. You need to you need to speak up. Uh you need to call your members of parliament. You need to raise awareness and share your story in media.

1:03:22

1 hour, 3 minutes, 22 seconds

Um and I think that's how we incite change.

1:03:27

1 hour, 3 minutes, 27 seconds

So [clears throat] first of all, I haven't had a chance to read the whole book. I' I've only I think I'm in chapter one,

1:03:34

1 hour, 3 minutes, 34 seconds

page 13, right? So that's it was just supplied to me and I started to read it over the weekend and got in day with a

1:03:42

1 hour, 3 minutes, 42 seconds

few other things. But I have to say this much. [clears throat] I'm an avid reader and and I'm but I'm very selective with

1:03:49

1 hour, 3 minutes, 49 seconds

what I read and in order to read a book to even get more than a few pages in it

1:03:56

1 hour, 3 minutes, 56 seconds

has to be a good book. It has to be authored well. And I can say this right off the bat. It is authored well. your

1:04:05

1 hour, 4 minutes, 5 seconds

your way of telling the story. It it makes you feel like you're part of the story. You're

1:04:13

1 hour, 4 minutes, 13 seconds

drawing people in. Um it's not there's nothing dry about it. And this is obviously, you know, coming from more of a male perspective where, you know,

1:04:21

1 hour, 4 minutes, 21 seconds

[clears throat] I'm looking at it dry, logical, whatever. It is it's an enthralling the way that you that that you articulate in there is very well

1:04:29

1 hour, 4 minutes, 29 seconds

done. I'll I'll just put it at that. And so [clears throat] clearly you've put out a lot of effort into this and you have a gift and a

1:04:37

1 hour, 4 minutes, 37 seconds

talent to tell story and that's a beautiful thing because that's ultimately what allows us to resonate with the message that you're conveying.

1:04:46

1 hour, 4 minutes, 46 seconds

What is the purpose of the book overall? What are you looking to achieve with it?

1:04:52

1 hour, 4 minutes, 52 seconds

Well, first of all, thank you for that lovely review. I'm actually excited to hear what you have to say once you've read the whole thing. I think you

1:04:59

1 hour, 4 minutes, 59 seconds

particularly will find the end of the book really interesting as I get into the advocacy and things that I unearthed. Um, but really I did I

1:05:09

1 hour, 5 minutes, 9 seconds

similar to what my mom's intention was for this book. I want people to be able

1:05:16

1 hour, 5 minutes, 16 seconds

to look at something that they thought they knew in a different way. And so not only to look at people who are suffering

1:05:26

1 hour, 5 minutes, 26 seconds

with mental illness through a different lens, you know, through compassion, um, also to look at caregivers and the support that they're not getting, to

1:05:34

1 hour, 5 minutes, 34 seconds

look at our health care system and how it's functioning, and to maybe not be defensive. You know, I'm often

1:05:41

1 hour, 5 minutes, 41 seconds

criticized that I am uh working against people's autonomy or that I wasn't respecting my mom's wishes. And I think

1:05:50

1 hour, 5 minutes, 50 seconds

if you do come to my book with curiosity um you're you might learn something new.

1:05:56

1 hour, 5 minutes, 56 seconds

And I really hope that this book is just a lens in order

1:06:02

1 hour, 6 minutes, 2 seconds

use it use it as a lens to look at the system that we trust and defer to uh

1:06:09

1 hour, 6 minutes, 9 seconds

especially when it comes to the uh purposely ending a human's life.

1:06:18

1 hour, 6 minutes, 18 seconds

Something else that that's um one I am looking forward to to reading the book in full and and have that intention um rather than reading off of my phone like

1:06:26

1 hour, 6 minutes, 26 seconds

I have been doing. I'd [clears throat] actually prefer to get a hard copy. So, I'm going to I can send you a hard copy or you can get a copy anywhere books are sold.

1:06:35

1 hour, 6 minutes, 35 seconds

Oh, really? Okay, good. Well, then then I will I will do that. I will and if I can't do that, then I'm going to reach back out to you to to get a copy.

1:06:43

1 hour, 6 minutes, 43 seconds

Either way, I'm going to get myself a hard copy because I like the hard copy.

1:06:46

1 hour, 6 minutes, 46 seconds

I like to highlight stuff and I like to make notes and much better.

1:06:49

1 hour, 6 minutes, 49 seconds

[clears throat]

1:06:50

1 hour, 6 minutes, 50 seconds

Thank you. Yeah, there is actually on my website there's a list of people who have stocked the book right now, but you can get it through Indigo. Um, Amazon

1:06:57

1 hour, 6 minutes, 57 seconds

seems to keep selling out and we're having issues with Amazon, but uh anyway, local bookstores, you can order it through a local bookstore and support the local economy, too. Feel good.

1:07:06

1 hour, 7 minutes, 6 seconds

Fantastic. All right. Well, I'll I'll go and um I don't know of many bookstores in my in my area other than Chapters, but I will Good.

1:07:14

1 hour, 7 minutes, 14 seconds

Good. I'll I'll go by there and and pick up a copy.

1:07:18

1 hour, 7 minutes, 18 seconds

Um [clears throat] there was something that was of note, and I'm going to digress just for a brief moment here, but did you say Avis Favro with CTV News broke the story?

1:07:30

1 hour, 7 minutes, 30 seconds

Yes. On April 22nd, 2022. Wow. I'm surprised.

1:07:37

1 hour, 7 minutes, 37 seconds

I'm surprised she's still around. The irony of she she she has since retired. She has since retired. Um but yeah, Avis took

1:07:45

1 hour, 7 minutes, 45 seconds

our story very seriously and they worked on the story for a couple of months.

1:07:50

1 hour, 7 minutes, 50 seconds

Oh wow. Okay. Well, yeah. The the only relevance here is I know Avis Favro's

1:07:57

1 hour, 7 minutes, 57 seconds

name because she was the one that did the story on us right after or you know is on us and on the research that

1:08:04

1 hour, 8 minutes, 4 seconds

happened in October of 2000 out of the University of Calgary and it was Lloyd um Robertson at that time was the the

1:08:12

1 hour, 8 minutes, 12 seconds

head news anchor for CTV National but it was Avis Favro's story. So, it [clears throat] was just kind of funny because I haven't heard that name aside

1:08:21

1 hour, 8 minutes, 21 seconds

from seeing that particular news report and working with it. I I didn't realize that she was still around. And so, that's that's an interesting funny little connection there.

1:08:29

1 hour, 8 minutes, 29 seconds

Well, when you get the hard copy of my book, you will see that Avis actually gave me an endorsement for my book. Fantastic. Yeah. All right.

1:08:37

1 hour, 8 minutes, 37 seconds

Yeah. Wonderful person.

1:08:39

1 hour, 8 minutes, 39 seconds

Awesome. Well, I'm looking looking forward to that. So, where are you at with all of this today? I I understand that you like when we take a look at

1:08:47

1 hour, 8 minutes, 47 seconds

your website, you're busy. You've got stuff on the go. You're you're you're moving and you're shaking.

1:08:53

1 hour, 8 minutes, 53 seconds

So, what is what is the past year or two looked like for you? And what does the next year look like for you?

1:09:00

1 hour, 9 minutes

Well, I've spent the last three years so deeply entrenched in my book, and now I

1:09:07

1 hour, 9 minutes, 7 seconds

finally get to be out of the book and doing what I love to do, which is talking to people. I was the kid that

1:09:15

1 hour, 9 minutes, 15 seconds

was always accused of talking too much in class. So really this is just I was born to do this and to share stories and

1:09:22

1 hour, 9 minutes, 22 seconds

you know go to events. I have um a conference coming up on Halloween day that I'm presenting at University of Lethbridge is doing a conference made at

1:09:32

1 hour, 9 minutes, 32 seconds

10:00 and really speaking engagements is where I really do see um this work expanding to to colleges and talking to

1:09:40

1 hour, 9 minutes, 40 seconds

per you know professionals in the industry and ethsists. Um, but you know what? I'm open. So, if you know, if

1:09:49

1 hour, 9 minutes, 49 seconds

something comes up uh that I feel really aligned with, then I think that that's probably something I'll explore well or

1:09:56

1 hour, 9 minutes, 56 seconds

in or I'll explore. Wellness is a huge um passion of mine and nutrition. And I

1:10:04

1 hour, 10 minutes, 4 seconds

uh I actually just really love what you're doing. I know you weren't trying to plug it earlier, but I'm like, I need to get some of your supplements immediately.

1:10:13

1 hour, 10 minutes, 13 seconds

Um, I I think that's the way people taking their power back and encouraging people and just sharing sharing my story.

1:10:23

1 hour, 10 minutes, 23 seconds

Awesome. So, what are you looking to achieve with all of your activity? I mean, obviously there's something that

1:10:31

1 hour, 10 minutes, 31 seconds

gets you out out of out of bed in the morning that you have a goal, you have a vision.

1:10:36

1 hour, 10 minutes, 36 seconds

What is that vision? What would the ideal look like in a year or two's time if you are successful in continuing to

1:10:44

1 hour, 10 minutes, 44 seconds

advocate? What are you looking to achieve?

1:10:48

1 hour, 10 minutes, 48 seconds

I want to see meaningful oversight and regulation. I don't want anyone to have

1:10:55

1 hour, 10 minutes, 55 seconds

their life prematurely ended because they couldn't access care. I hope that the work that I'm doing is shining light on the health care system.

1:11:03

1 hour, 11 minutes, 3 seconds

uh I've been actively uh working alongside politicians who are trying to make really good change, but it is really discouraging working within the

1:11:12

1 hour, 11 minutes, 12 seconds

system. Um so I don't actually know. I don't have it all figured out. Um, and

1:11:21

1 hour, 11 minutes, 21 seconds

I think if I can save lives, which I know that I'm doing, and if I can

1:11:28

1 hour, 11 minutes, 28 seconds

continue to educate and inspire, then I'm just going to keep following following that, but I I don't have a

1:11:36

1 hour, 11 minutes, 36 seconds

particular end goal. I feel like my target is constantly moving and I'm I'm shifting and and uh evolving with it.

1:11:43

1 hour, 11 minutes, 43 seconds

Awesome. that that sometimes the most wise thing that we can do is learn to just be dynamic, recognizing that we're

1:11:50

1 hour, 11 minutes, 50 seconds

doing something for a reason and the outcome that we were initially looking for may not be the outcome. Maybe it will be, hopefully it will be, but that

1:11:58

1 hour, 11 minutes, 58 seconds

there's still good that comes out of shining the truth. Because when I'm looking at this, I'm curious as to how

1:12:06

1 hour, 12 minutes, 6 seconds

many people are left in a state of feeling broken and kind of hopeless and

1:12:13

1 hour, 12 minutes, 13 seconds

destitute and question the whole system left in the aftermath of a loved one utilizing maid where it wasn't it it's

1:12:22

1 hour, 12 minutes, 22 seconds

not justifiable. And so by you shining a light, I think that even for people in that particular situation, and I'm sure

1:12:30

1 hour, 12 minutes, 30 seconds

you get the messages, you're probably providing a sense of hope for them, maybe a sense of clarity, maybe you're

1:12:37

1 hour, 12 minutes, 37 seconds

you're inspiring them and helping them to maybe come out of the rut that they're stuck in in the left in the aftermath of of the loss of a loved one.

1:12:47

1 hour, 12 minutes, 47 seconds

Uh, you know, there are many family members that I have connected with through the work that I'm doing. Um, one

1:12:54

1 hour, 12 minutes, 54 seconds

of the things that my sister said in the beginning actually was that she wanted she wanted to be a lighthouse. You know,

1:13:01

1 hour, 13 minutes, 1 second

when we went into this, we didn't know um we didn't know anyone. We didn't know we didn't know who to turn to. There was

1:13:08

1 hour, 13 minutes, 8 seconds

only one other story actually also written by Avis Favo about a man named Alan Nichols who was also released from

1:13:15

1 hour, 13 minutes, 15 seconds

the same hospital that my mom was at and was euthanized. And and so another connection when I saw your logo of the

1:13:23

1 hour, 13 minutes, 23 seconds

True Hope podcast with the lighthouse, um the imprint of my book is actually also

1:13:32

1 hour, 13 minutes, 32 seconds

a lighthouse. And if you look really closely, if I can get in there, the light is actually a butterfly, which is

1:13:39

1 hour, 13 minutes, 39 seconds

a symbol of transformation transformation and and fragility and and the power and the connection that we all

1:13:47

1 hour, 13 minutes, 47 seconds

have. Um, yeah, that's amazing. [gasps]

1:13:54

1 hour, 13 minutes, 54 seconds

Yeah, we we have some overlap. So, I'm I'm interested to see if maybe some of the work that I'm doing can support the work that you're doing and vice versa.

1:14:03

1 hour, 14 minutes, 3 seconds

Yeah, there's there's a saying if you can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse.

1:14:09

1 hour, 14 minutes, 9 seconds

And and I'm just, you know, I'm there's there's sub, you know, you can apply whatever meaning you want to it, but oftentimes the bridge is obviously the one that that helps to to resolve

1:14:16

1 hour, 14 minutes, 16 seconds

conflict, to bridge a gap. But if you can't be that, then you can be sturdy like a lighthouse and and shine the truth. And often times we don't know

1:14:24

1 hour, 14 minutes, 24 seconds

what we're able to achieve. But there is something powerful to be said about shining a light because that light is going to mean something different to every particular

1:14:33

1 hour, 14 minutes, 33 seconds

individual that sees it. it's going to have a different it's going to have more substance in one area of their life than maybe somebody else. But either way, the

1:14:40

1 hour, 14 minutes, 40 seconds

light was needed, the truth was needed, and so it's a beautiful thing for I love the whole symbolism aspect of it and whatnot. So

1:14:48

1 hour, 14 minutes, 48 seconds

yeah, you know, there's even there's family members that were really supportive of their loved one having

1:14:56

1 hour, 14 minutes, 56 seconds

medical assistance and dying and then completely traumatized by the experience, counting down knowing my mom's going to be dead in 3 days, two

1:15:03

1 hour, 15 minutes, 3 seconds

days, one day, and then watching the physical act of poison being injected into their loved one vein

1:15:11

1 hour, 15 minutes, 11 seconds

and and their life fading away. and and those people have reached out to me because now they have very conflicted views, you know, that they were so supportive and now they're so

1:15:19

1 hour, 15 minutes, 19 seconds

traumatized. And this is this complicated grief. And there's national provincial and national bereavement groups talking about medical

1:15:28

1 hour, 15 minutes, 28 seconds

assistance and dying that I've attended and I'm traumatized by their lack of understanding

1:15:35

1 hour, 15 minutes, 35 seconds

of grief and medical assistance and dying. And so families are reaching out to me and and yeah, so that lighthouse

1:15:42

1 hour, 15 minutes, 42 seconds

is um just, you know, what I'm striving to for connection and I guess it's trauma bond, you know, it it it helps me too. It helps me too. So, so what would

1:15:51

1 hour, 15 minutes, 51 seconds

you say to anybody who's watching this that has had a loved one go through maid and and they're left in a in a similar

1:15:59

1 hour, 15 minutes, 59 seconds

type situation, broken situation with all all the questions and maybe not nearly as many answers as they should be getting because of obviously the the

1:16:07

1 hour, 16 minutes, 7 seconds

fact that so much information is being suppressed or or prevented access to.

1:16:13

1 hour, 16 minutes, 13 seconds

What would you say to somebody who's maybe going through that particular situation right now? what words of encouragement or hope or um what

1:16:20

1 hour, 16 minutes, 20 seconds

experience could you shed that would be beneficial in helping guide someone else into a productive place in their life?

1:16:30

1 hour, 16 minutes, 30 seconds

Well, from from a mental health standpoint, I did everything wrong. I I

1:16:38

1 hour, 16 minutes, 38 seconds

was I did not have support systems in place beforehand. I am a huge believer in therapy. I think you should have an

1:16:47

1 hour, 16 minutes, 47 seconds

amazing support system in place before you ever experience a crisis. I think at

1:16:55

1 hour, 16 minutes, 55 seconds

some point in your life, you are going to go through hard things and it's much better if you have that system in place beforehand. So, I now have an incredible

1:17:04

1 hour, 17 minutes, 4 seconds

uh therapist that we just have an ongoing session every four weeks like you go to the chiropractor or for a massage or you know to the gym or for a

1:17:13

1 hour, 17 minutes, 13 seconds

walk, right? you just do these things to prevent a crisis. And so, um, I think that's a huge thing is is traumainformed

1:17:22

1 hour, 17 minutes, 22 seconds

therapy. Um, if you are feeling that maybe something was wrong, trust

1:17:29

1 hour, 17 minutes, 29 seconds

your gut and and believe in yourself and and have the confidence. I think so often um, you know, I am continuously

1:17:38

1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds

gaslit when I speak out that wasn't true. Well, I had this experience with my family member and that's not true.

1:17:43

1 hour, 17 minutes, 43 seconds

And you're like, I'm so happy for you that that's how that happened. It didn't happen that way for me. And so, you know, having the confidence that if it

1:17:52

1 hour, 17 minutes, 52 seconds

feels wrong, it probably was. Um, you know, unfortunately, it's really hard to

1:18:01

1 hour, 18 minutes, 1 second

get any um to get access as a family member to oversight. This is why I just keep sharing our story. we weren't able

1:18:10

1 hour, 18 minutes, 10 seconds

to get any resolution through the judicial system or through the oversight system and so now we speak out about our

1:18:17

1 hour, 18 minutes, 17 seconds

stories. So if you feel like you can't speak out and you want me to share your story, I can do that. We have journal we

1:18:24

1 hour, 18 minutes, 24 seconds

know journalists and you know sharing your story is so powerful because the

1:18:31

1 hour, 18 minutes, 31 seconds

narrative is what shifts and changes society and our views.

1:18:36

1 hour, 18 minutes, 36 seconds

um you know germs used to be a conspiracy theory until it was proven and so data and stories and testimony

1:18:44

1 hour, 18 minutes, 44 seconds

these are important and anyway so I don't I don't I don't have a specific resolution but for me and our family I

1:18:51

1 hour, 18 minutes, 51 seconds

know that that has been uh particularly meaningful I I think that would be very beneficial to to many of the people that that'll

1:18:58

1 hour, 18 minutes, 58 seconds

watch this that have unfortunately endured the loss of a loved one and have all those questions and um no answers

1:19:05

1 hour, 19 minutes, 5 seconds

there's confusion and still just this, you know, pending trauma that that needs to be healed

1:19:14

1 hour, 19 minutes, 14 seconds

due to to the the maid system. And unfortunately, I mean, there's a lot of issues that would surround that that somebody isn't just going and and and

1:19:23

1 hour, 19 minutes, 23 seconds

ending their life prematurely because of a foreseeable death. That's not the perspective that many people will take.

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There's always when when death arises in our life, it often times causes us to go and become quite introspective and take

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a look and and into ourselves and what we could have done better. We begin to question, you know, what kind of individual we were in relation to the

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the the individual who died. And when it comes to to maid, it would often times also come with an associated sense of blame just like suicide would.

1:19:56

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Yes. where you begin to say, did I play into that? And so it becomes a lot more traumatic

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to those that are left behind to suffer the loss because now there there's questions about why would they do this?

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And so [clears throat] I think that the the whole maid system unfortunately even if you have somebody who has a foreseeable death and and I'm

1:20:20

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not here to say that okay somebody's going to like terminal cancer is going to die right away. I'm not going to say one way or the other. I I think well

1:20:29

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personally I have my own beliefs in relation to letting letting things go the way that they go. But

1:20:37

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when somebody now commit, you know, engages in maid, well, now it it opens up this other

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pathway of trauma over the fact that, right, like now now it's going to leave even more trauma and

1:20:50

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more grief than than if the person just passed away naturally or died from a car accident or something like that. And so

1:20:58

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I I think that there's a lot of healing that that needs to take place in the fact that one out of every 20 deaths

1:21:04

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here in Canada is due to maid. And those are older numbers. It's probably a little bit higher now. Hopefully those

1:21:12

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numbers go down, but [clears throat] yeah.

1:21:17

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Yeah, it I mean it does seem to be leveling out. Um statistically, I don't think we're seeing a lot of expansion.

1:21:22

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However, um as you know, I mentioned with the legislation is that the Liberals are looking to expand this um for advanced

1:21:31

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directives. So, um I do think we are going to see a rise in numbers. And again, there's two sides to everything.

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In theory, we can look at advanced directive. If someone is diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia, they sign a

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directive that when they reach a certain point determined by them, uh, and that might be, you know, at the point where

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they have to have a feeding tube and they don't recognize anyone. And I think some people could go, okay, like I I see that like they've now lost capacity,

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they can't consent, but previous to them losing the capacity, they wanted this. However,

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um you know, there was a case in Belgium that I touch on in my book where a woman had signed an advanced directive where

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that is legal. Um where I mean Quebec is doing it right now already against

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federal law. Um but at the time she had signed an a directive that when it was

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time to go into a home, a care like long-term care, that she wanted to be euthanized. But at that point in time,

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she's now lost capacity. She didn't want to die and her family actually had to restrain her and hold her down while they euthanized her. Um because you've

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now lost capacity to consent or to change your mind. You know, your former self that had capacity overrides

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everything. And so wi with any situation, you have to be able to look at it critically. and safeguards are stress

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tested when you come across complicated cases like these. So, it's not black and white and I do want people to look at this more critically um you know as the

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legislation is changing and expanding and growing and shifting. Um so anyway, we'll see. We'll see. the numbers are

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around 5% um as a national average and uh but I do think that if the Liberals

1:23:31

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um are able to expand this like they've said they want to and they're going to um I do think that we're going to see a rise in these numbers which is really

1:23:39

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scary especially under the context of intimate partner violence and coercion and maybe an adult child getting a huge

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inheritance when this person dies you know and and forcing loved ones to sign these advanced directives because they don't want to care for or they tell their loved one, you you will be a

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burden. Uh coercion is very subtle. So, uh we'll see. We'll see where these numbers go, but uh I'm I'm very concerned. Very concerned.

1:24:06

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Well, and you have reason as well as every other Canadian to be concerned, especially you you bring up the points

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of of the different incentives that various individuals will have to help coers those individuals that are more

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vulnerable into doing this these, you know, engaging in.

1:24:27

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Well, I'm really appreciative, Alicia, for the fact that you've come on today to share what you're doing. I'm appreciative of the work that you're

1:24:35

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engaged in. It's a noble thing to use your voice for good. We need more people in this world doing that. And you are

1:24:43

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being a lighthouse. It's a beautiful thing um to shine that light to to share the truth and to take uh a traumatic experience in your life that often times

1:24:52

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are quite personal that that you would hold near and dear and to use that for the betterment of of all Canadians and

1:24:59

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and I'm sure many people around the world. And so I'm appreciative of what you're doing there. And so thank you Alicia for for coming on. Um for anybody

1:25:08

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who is wanting to reach out to you, gain access to your book. I know you mentioned that it's available at many local health or not health food stores.

1:25:17

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I'm too used to saying that. [laughter] Local bookstores. You're selling a book. We sell health products. All right.

1:25:24

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Yes. Um, if [clears throat] somebody wants to connect with you or they want to know more about what you're doing, I know you have your website and that is I believe it's aliciadan.com.

1:25:34

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Is that correct?

1:25:35

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That's it. Yeah, aliciaduncan.com. I am uh most active on Instagram. I occasionally pop on to X. Um, I get on

1:25:44

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and get off as quickly as I can there, but you can follow along for some uh occasional little posts. Uh, my book is

1:25:52

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available really anywhere. So it is being distributed throughout Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom. So you can if it's not in stock in a

1:26:00

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bookstore, you can get any bookstore across Canada, the US, and the UK to order it in for you. And I do have a list of Canadian stockists who currently

1:26:09

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have the book in stock. Um so yeah, you can connect, reach out. I get um messages all the time, emails, people

1:26:16

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just asking questions or to share their own story. And I'm always just so grateful to connect.

1:26:21

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Awesome. Now, one more thing in relation to the book. [clears throat] I've got quite a large library, physical

1:26:29

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library. I I I enjoy that rather than where many people would have their TVs and everything set up in their house. I've got a I've got bookshelves. Amazing.

1:26:37

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But I have almost as large of a library when it comes to Audible because I spend a decent amount of time on the road and I'm not going to be carrying a book and and reading while I'm steering, right?

1:26:46

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Yes. Even though my dad used to do that when I was about four or five years old, I'm not going to follow suit in that.

1:26:52

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That's dangerous. So, um,

1:26:54

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[clears throat]

1:26:55

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is it available in Audible?

1:26:59

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Not yet. So, that is an undertaking that I do want to take. I I love when I

1:27:05

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listen to a book that has um that that is in the author's voice. And so, that is something that I am looking to

1:27:12

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expand. Uh, but I'm probably just going to have to wait until the new year with everything that I have going on. But it is on my list of things to do. So, fantastic.

1:27:23

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We will try to get there. I I'm sure there there has to be an app where you can get the ebook and then upload it to read it to you. I'm sure this exists.

1:27:31

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Oh, it does. It does exist. But no, go going back to what you just said there.

1:27:35

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And that that was why I was bringing that forward. Fortunately, when when my sister wrote her book, A Promise of Hope, years ago, when Harper Collins

1:27:44

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published it, she auditioned back then because it was a little bit more of a stringent process back then. Um, she had

1:27:51

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to audition to see if if her voice was palatable, if people would actually be willing to listen to her. And she passed the

1:27:59

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audition. So she was able to uh read her own book and that got published in audible version. Back then it was

1:28:07

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actually a few CD disc set. You could purchase it.

1:28:11

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Yes. and then but then it became available on on audible.com and so that's a that's a beautiful undertaking

1:28:18

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that that you're doing because yes I I appreciate it even if the individual and I'm because I've run across a few

1:28:26

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other books where people don't have necessarily the best voice not saying that you you've got a great voice and you articulate very well and so I'd look

1:28:34

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forward to to you reading your own book because you're going to you're going to speak it just like you you wrote it but it's a awesome thing to see when

1:28:44

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somebody um or you know narrates their own book and so I'm looking forward to that as well. Well, thank you.

1:28:52

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It would be one that would be good on Audible.

1:28:54

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Yeah, I I hope soon. You know, one of one of the things that was really important for me was that I retained the rights to my book. And I am sure I could

1:29:03

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have pitched it to a traditional publishing firm and and got a publishing contract. that for me it was very important that I self-published this

1:29:11

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book. However, um I do I I was able to um sign

1:29:19

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essentially a hybrid distribution. So I have professional distribution access to like top editors like my editor was

1:29:26

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phenomenal. And so when you were saying like the, you know, the style and the flow of the book, like shout out to my editors for teaching me how to write,

1:29:35

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uh, and then for structuring it the way that they did. Um, but coming but with all of that, it's lovely that you retain

1:29:43

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all of your rights as a self-published author. You also um, all of the the cost [laughter] is is your burden as well.

1:29:51

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And so, you know, I need to sell a few more books and then we'll get the Audible. So, you know what? There's there's my pitch. buy my book and help fund the Audible.

1:29:59

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Fantastic. Well, looking forward to it.

1:30:01

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I'm going to go and purchase one of the books and I'm also going to we're going to conversate afterwards in relation to to getting you some supplements as well.

1:30:09

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Great.

1:30:09

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So, we Yes, we we'll uh we'll have a beautiful conversation surrounding that.

1:30:13

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Um but once again, thank you so much for coming on, Alicia. Really appreciate what you're doing and may you continue to be blessed to be a blessing to so many others.

1:30:23

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Thank you.

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