How would you begin to dissect like am I am I

still held back from that experience now?

If they're grip by that experience, they have not healed. It's like the person who

says well, I'm great as long as I don't.

Know that's not healing betrayal really

lends itself to creating an entirely new identity. You

keep all the parts about you that you love and

you let go and you leave behind everything that no

longer serves. It's like this. It's like, you know Legos, right?

So imagine imagine a Lego structure in

the corner of a room and it's just there, you know, just sitting there

and then the whole thing is destroyed. Here's here's

the opportunity in betrayal. It says

if the whole thing came down and you're looking at each piece

saying I don't want to build it the same way. I don't want to use that piece.

I don't want to do it like that. I want to do it this way. I want to make it

bigger and better and More Beautiful whatever it is. That's what's

happening. So if someone's just you know back to

life as it was where they're not

maxed out in their health in their relationships in

their work, they haven't healed and

and you can go either way with

this rebuilding is always a choice whether you

rebuild yourself and you move on

Or if the situation lends itself if you're

willing if you want to you rebuild something from the ground

up new with the person who

hurt you and that's what I do with my husband not long ago is too totally

transform people. We married each other

again. Hello good day greetings. Whatever you are in the world. Thank you

for joining true. Hope cast the official podcast the true hope Canada

true Hope cast takes a deep dive into mental health

many physiological and psychological aspects. This

is the show for you. If you're looking for motivation inspiration knowledge

and solutions and that's what we're all about

here at true. Hope Canada and true. Hope Canada is a mind and

body based supplement company dedicated first and foremost

to promoting brain and body Health through non-invasive nutritional means

for more information about us, please visit true. Hope

canada.com today. I welcome Dr. Debbie

Silber to the podcast now Dr. Silbert is

the founder of the post portrayal transformation Institute. She's

a holistic psychologist a health mindset and

personal development expert and a two-time number one.

Best selling author her recent PhD study

on how we experience betrayal made three

groundbreaking discoveries that change how

long it takes to heal.

In addition to being on Fox CBS The

Dr. Oz Show and tedx. She's an award-winning speaker

and Coach dedicated to helping people move past their

betrayals and any other blocks preventing them from

Health work relationships confidence and happiness

that they really really desire today that we're

going to be discussing unhealed betrayal. Enjoy the show.

Okay. Well, welcome to the show Dr. Debbie. Thank you

so much for being with me today. How are you? What is going well?

Doing great. Looking forward to our conversation.

Wonderful. Well just as an as an intro. Can you

just let us know who you are and what it is

that you do, please.

Sure. I'm the founder and CEO of the

PBT which stands for post betrayal transformation Institute

and you can imagine no one

runs an Institute for betrayal unless

you need to and it's it's actually

my 30th year in business and as life would change so

in business, so it was health and then mindset and then

personal development and then I had a really painful betrayal from

my family thought I did everything I needed to

do to heal from that and then it happened a few years later this time.

It was my husband. So that was the deal breaker got him

out of the house and looked at the two experiences thinking well

what similar to these two of course me, but what else and realize

I never really put my self on my

own to-do list so realized, you know,

if nothing changes nothing changes. So here I was four kids six

dogs and a thriving business and I decided to

go back for a PhD and it was in trans personal

psychology the psychology of transformation and

human potential while I was there. I did a study I

Trail what holds us back what helps us heal and

what happens to us physically mentally and emotionally

when the people closest to us lie cheat

and deceive and that study led to three groundbreaking

discoveries, which changed my health my

family my work my life.

Wow, that's a whole that's a whole lot of stuff. Amazing. Well,

thank you for sharing sharing that with us. And yeah, I mean,

I found it very interesting going through going through

your profile going through your website and you know a post

betrayal transformation Institute. I mean, it's such a

fascinating thing to even comprehend. It sounds super unique super

new super interesting. So before we jump into maybe jump

into that, let's talk about like betrayal.

Let's break that down. Like what is that? What

does that mean? What do you think that means for most people?

Yeah, you know I Define it as the breaking of a spoken or

unspoken Rule and every relationship has them, you know,

and the way it works is the more you trust and the more you depend on

that person the deeper the Betrayal so for example a child

who's completely dependent on their parent and the

parent is something awful that's gonna have a different impact then let's say,

you know your best friend sharing your secret

your coworker taking credit for your idea still a betrayal

a different level of cleanup necessary in

the Wake but it hurts so much because

this was the person where these were

the people that we trusted the most. So when the

person you trust the most proves untrustworthy, who

do you trust when the one you run to when other people are

causing harm is the one causing the harm, where do

you go? So betrayal is a very different type of trauma which

in fact was the first discovery and happy to share

all of them if you want to hear. Yeah. Absolutely like yeah, I

want to talk about the Institute. We'll send it talk about the study and what

you what you're able to find from that cuz I'm sure that the information that

Found in that is is important relevant to

everybody and so how do

you how does betrayal?

in you talk to his betrayal impact us because you spoke about

like

Kind of the deeper the trust the longer the

trust whatever is that like the I don't know.

The larger the Betrayal feels like you know obviously grows

is significant. You've got so much invested in that individual and

everything from what you

thought about that person's what you thought about their personality and their characteristics.

Everything's kind of about the window and ends up just being a lie, and

I suppose all the

All the clusters of cells and

neurons that we build up in boxes about that type

of individual like that just gets shattered and broken like

in like a literally in an instant right when that

thing happens or that thing gets said or that thing comes out whole

Paradigm shifts get completely changing

literally huge part different parts of your brain associated

with that individual that thing whatever

that might be it gets completely blown out

of the water and then what are people do with that like clean up of that

like unclustering of neurons. Yeah.

Well to answer the question. How

does it show up? It shows up. First of all shows up

everywhere in your health and your work in your relationships. So for

example in relationships, I'll see it in

one of two ways the the classic sign of

an unhealed betrayal is repeat betrayal. So the

face is change, you know, and you keep saying, you know, you

may say well, why do I keep having the the same type of type of

experience I keep going from friend to friend to friend or partner to

partner.

Her boss to bust of us and it's the same thing.

Is it me? Yes, it is not in that. It's your

fault in that. It's your opportunity. There is a profound

lesson waiting to be learned. You are

lovable worthy and deserving you need better boundaries

in place. Whatever that particular lesson is

for you until unless you get that you're

gonna have opportunities in the form of people to teach

you the second way. We see it in relationships is

where the big wall goes up like been there done

that no one's getting near me again. And we think that's coming from

a place of strength and it's not it's coming from Fear so

we just keep people at a distance

because we just can't even risk the vulnerability

and and take that chance of having

our heart broken like that again. So we see it in health

too people go to the most well-meaning doctors coaches

healers therapists to manage just stress related

symptom illness condition disease very often

at the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. We see it in work.

You people there they deserve

that razor promotion, but their confidence was shattered

in the Betrayal.

So they don't have the confidence to ask in their bitter

and resentful instead or they want to

be a team player collaborative partner joint venture partner, but

the person they trusted the most proved untrustworthy. So

how could they trust that boss that coworker that partner shows

up everywhere?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I just wonder do

you think?

do you think betrayal of being betrayed is and

Important part of growing as a person. Do you

think it's inevitable for everybody? And I suppose it goes one of

Maybe two or three ways. I suppose if you were to experience that. Like let's

call it a significant betrayal because there's obviously different levels to that

whether you're a kid you're gonna process the whole experience completely

differently is if you're an adult so let's say you're an

adult you go through a significant betrayal that's but you know,

you hear people all of the time that that use that really bad

thing that happens to them to catapult them

and to be these unbelievable individuals that use the

motivation of that energetic experience to know take

them to do amazing things a lot

of people as you say

Don't learn from the experience. Maybe I don't

know. I'm not sure. I'm sure it's very deep but like somebody

experiences that betrayal and then they just let them move on

to the next portrayal and they're not really digested that

whole experience didn't really recognize that that type

of betrayal is something that they don't deserve. It's also

something that you know, if they're

not going to

Develop themselves personally to look to avoid

it in the future then it's like, you know, they're kind of like stuck in that in

that past. Like is there is there a particular?

Is there a particular individual that succumbs to

this betrayal and you see it more often than not becoming like a

positive thing for people to you know, recognize that okay,

you can for me once but you know like that happening

again. It's like a real big lesson learned.

Yeah, well, of course, that's the opportunity and that was

the first discovery that betrayal is

such a different type of trauma that really lends itself

to a very different type of healing, you know, originally I

was studying betrayal and post-traumatic growth. And for

those you know, I'm sure you're familiar is I look

at it like the upside of trump how any trauma death of a

loved one disease natural disaster leaves you with a new awareness Insight

perspective. You didn't have maybe you lose someone you love

and you realize life is short that kind of thing but I had lost

loved ones and and I also had disease and

I was like, no betrayal feels very different for me.

I didn't want to assume it was the same for almost

that he participants. So I asked them if you've been through other traumas besides

betrayal. Is it different for you you nanaimously they

said it's so different and here's why because

it feels so intentional we take

it so personally, so the entire self is shattered

and has to be rebuilt rejection abandonment belonging

confidence worthiness trust, you

know.

When you lose someone you love you, grieve, you're sad.

You're more than the loss. You don't necessarily lose your ability to trust you.

Don't question your sanity, you know, so

Well with post-traumatic growth you rebuild your

life with betrayal you rebuild your life and yourself

so long answer to your question. The

opportunity is to rebuild your

life and yourself and according to

new term post betrayal transformation. When you do that,

that's the state you're living in and that's the opportunity when

you're when you're not, you

know, it's like such a waste of trauma, you know,

and that's when you experience symptoms of

post betrayal syndrome and you get stuck and

those are you know, two of the other discoveries, which I'd love

to share if you want to hear.

just on the flip side in regards to

you know, I'm a person who's been betrayed and then what

I go through I just feel I just I just wonder

like what what the evidence of what the the research is showing

in regards to like what type of person is super comfortable

with betraying?

You know a close family member or a loved one

or even a co-worker, you know, it's at the end of the day human beings,

right and we can all hopefully empathize with

with, you know, feeling let down

and sad and angry and all these things but but betraying an

individual like you're consciously stepping into a situation where

you are causing another person's like significant harm

and I wonder if

there is there like a particular type of personalities a

trait of individuals who are super comfortable with

that type of level of betrayal as they're

much research in that. Yeah, you know, the the main

characteristic of that would be a lack

of empathy if you can't understand what that

would feel like, you know, that's that's one thing right there. But there

are so many reasons why people betray pass

trauma sense of entitlement no empathy.

You know Revenge there's so

many reasons. It does not excuse any of it because we're

always responsible.

For for our actions and it's so interesting

though because one of our programs is actually for a rebuild

program is for the betrayer and I get

to see them, you know on this it you

know in in a group and really work with them. And these are

these are people who have true. I mean certainly this isn't everybody

there is a there's a group who is

very comfortable betraying and that's just who they are and they

keep doing that but there is definitely a segment of the

Betrayed the Betrayal I'm sorry

the people who do betray who do wake up and realize

that's not who they want to be anymore

and betrayal will truly.

Show you who someone is or it has the opportunity to

wake them up to who they temporarily became when that's

what happens. If if you

want to it's a potential there's a

potential for an entirely new relationship with

the person who hurt you. Of course, you don't have to do anything with

that. But the potential is there when the

the betrayer completely wakes

up to who they've been and what they've done.

Yeah, I I guess I mean there's obviously there's a

there's a group of people within the population that we can call them

Psychopaths. You know, who without question is probably

that first group you were talking about people who've got absolutely no problem

with betraying people and have that complete lack of empathy

with other people, but there's other people who

Maybe May exhibit betrayal makes a bit betrayal in their

lives, but then maybe that's because of they've experienced so much themselves, especially

a young age where they think that that's just like

a normal thing that happens in the world and until you like

get that big kind of like wake up call or something huge happens and you

see this huge reaction from another individual that might make you

start to think that oh, okay. This isn't normal way

to kind of act within the world.

Exactly. And you know, we we act in spite of because of

it. That's one of the reasons why repeat the

trail is so common too because if we've grown up with betrayal

and if we haven't cleaned that up, then we

move into relationships not because they're good because

they're so familiar. It's like, oh I know how to I know how to move

within this type of relationship. This is something I know where when

we heal from it. It doesn't need to keep showing

itself. We've we've moved past what

we've what we

were accepting in the past. It's no longer a fit for

us. We see it. So clearly we've outgrown those

types of experiences. We just

don't resonate with that anymore.

Yeah, if you were to experience Betrayal on a consistent

basis as such a young age, you're you're

basically learning how to build relationships with

people or how not to do that. And you know, as you go into

like a young no young kid

and then to a teenager and into into the into

an adult.

Those experiences of you communicating with other people and building

relationships like that. Betrayal piece is kind of like, you know,

what can I get from this person rather than looking at looking at relationship from

a mutual perspective as a partnership and yeah, I

feel so I feel so sorry for those individuals have

grown up.

Being that as a, you know, a normal part of their life and then never

having the ability to really like deeply connect with another

individual in a long term in the long

term. Anyway. Yeah, it's it sounds like it's a big problem and

I wonder like what we can do with helping educate

children not just those children who you know,

I don't say damage, but those kids that have had challenges growing

up. What can we do to like help them recognize that

yeah, you do have your own feelings and you do have your own

emotions and you have words and you have behaviors that you can exhibit to

change those but what you think what you say

and what you do can ultimately significantly change, you know,

yeah one other person can do as well. How do we how do

we ingrain that or not ingraine or teach that to kids that

that's a big responsibility?

Yeah, well one of the things that's so important for

them to realize anybody to realize when they've been betrayed even

though it happened to you. It's not about you

and and that's that's one of

the most important pieces because when we

Start to when we think or we start to believe that

it's us.

It's really hard to get out of it. And then what happens

is we have those symptoms of post betrayal

syndrome that was actually the second discovery that there's

this collection of symptoms physical mental and

emotional so common to betrayal. It's now known as

post-butral syndrome now someone you know, like you've explained

who they grew up with betrayal and then

they move into it's further experiences and relationships

where they continue to have these

types of relationships. It's impossible not

to have a symptoms and

you know, first of all, we've had close to

90,000 people take our post betrayal syndrome

quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling and a

few things about that. The first thing is we've heard we've all

heard and been taught Time Heals all wounds. I

have the proof that when it comes to betrayal that's not true because

and like I mentioned before those repeat betrayals,

there's a question on the quiz that says is there anything else you'd

like to share and people say things the right

things like

My betrayal happened 40 years ago and I

can still feel the hate my betrayal happened 35 years ago.

I'm unwilling to trust so we know that unless

and until

You take deliberate action to heal your betrayal

it will follow you around like a shadow and

just affect, you know, and and

leech into every area of life and and every few

months I pull the stats from the quiz to see where people land happy

to share them if you want to hear.

Certainly. Yeah, it's a little bit more about the about the quiz and tell us

a little bit more about the the results that you've pulled over the what 30 years of

The Institute.

Yeah, so so the Institute I'm in business

over 30 years The Institute isn't is an open for 30 years, but this

is so now imagine with the post betrayal syndrome

quiz, which is on our site men women

just about every country is represented. So out of

all of them 78% constantly revisit

their experience 81% feel loss

of personal power 80% or hypervigilant

94% deal with

painful triggers and those triggers can take you right down the most

common physical symptoms.

71% have low energy. 68% have

sleep issues 63% have

extreme fatigue. So you go to sleep you wake up.

You're exhausted 47% have weight changes,

maybe in the beginning. You can't hold food down later on

you're using food for Comfort 45% have

digestive issues. So this could be Crohn's IBS

diverticulitis. You name it now to like

we were speaking about this before you

can go to let's say the most well-meaning gut

doctor digestive expert but if if they

don't know that there's an and how would they

right that? There's an unhealed betrayal at the at the root at

the core?

They're only managing symptoms, you know

because for like I said 45% alone have a

gut issue the most common emotion. Uh, no

the mental issues 78% are overwhelmed 70%

are walking around in the state of disbelief.

68% are unable to focus 64% are

in Shock 62% can concentrate. So imagine

you can't concentrate you're exhausted. Let's say

you have a gut issue you have to go to work. You have to

raise your kids. That's not even the emotional issues emotionally

88% experience extreme

sadness 83% are

very angry. You can bounce back and forth between those two emotions all

day long, which is exhausting 82% feel

hurt 80% have anxiety 79% or

stressed just a few more. Here's why I wrote

the book trust again 84% have an

inability to trust

7% have are preventing themselves from

forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again

82% find it hard to move forward 90%

want to move forward, but they don't know how

Is there their comments do you find out in those

studies like sorry in the in the

the questionnaire or the form that you guys have there that people that people

fill out like what your portrayal was do they ever

you ever get that descriptive description and they're called they're

common ones. They're like a top three betrayals. Yeah relational

partner with a partner. You know, that's

infidelity the most the most common that

comes our way family betrayal are real close second and

you just just to get back to those

statistics one more thing about that. You didn't hear

me say one thing 20% 30% These numbers

are high. Here's the crazy part about

it. These numbers are from a recent betrayal.

This is from the parent who

did something when you were a kid, this is from the girlfriend or

boyfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think about this that

person may not know care remember they may not

even be alive and we're walking around with these

symptoms because we haven't deliberately

an intentionally moved through the five stages

from betrayal to break through. That was the third Discovery. We haven't

moved through our healing to truly heal and

transform after the experience to me.

That's the biggest crime if that we are having these

symptoms that affect every area of life from something

that happened.

decades ago

Well, it makes purpose. I mean, I know quite a

lot about the human body and and how stress significantly

depletes every single.

System within our body so, you know, you could have this traumatic

event happen to you and it could affect your guy could affect

your brain into could just affect your skin without breaks, you know,

it can be so so unbelievably diverse and unique and individual to different

people.

And yeah, the I mean the big thing when you were just

talking about that I also did notice when you were saying all those

things everything was above like 60% which is remarkable. You

know, that's a lot. That's that's a high percentage of people experiencing significant

distress and probably for decades at

a time.

and as you say a lot of the people, who are they you know,

the

The people who bought this Betrayal on them and

it is most likely those people aren't in their lives anymore and they have

no idea where they are.

As long distant memory that means it's

all stored in the body somewhere. It's all in the brain. It's all

within the body and you know, I think of you know, a significant stress

are like that type of a traumatic event, you know, that that energy

that shift has to go somewhere now. It's literally an explosion

you might about to see it but something significantly happens,

especially I mean you get like bad news or something happens

to you in a sympathetic fight or flight

manner you feel that surge you feel it? You know, there's there's

biochemical things happening. There's a big change there and if

your body is like if you don't digest that whole experience through

whatever therapy or movement like

all the other things that we know that are very very important towards your

mental health and being able to you know, not necessarily just like forget about

that but to like get through it learn from it process it

eliminate it from the body if we're not doing those,

where's it gonna go? It has to sit it has to

stay it stays in the tissues and we end up with this low grade

chronic stress all

of the time like morning.

Morning afternoon and night when we're sleeping. You're

just bodies in this constant like stress mode

on the all of the time which is incredibly body just can't

do that for long periods of time. It's designed to do it for maybe a few minutes but to

do it for decades and years and totally

makes sense that you're getting those unbelievable statistics on such

significant systemic harm that people are experiencing

for a long period of time and if they don't have

An outlet or an understanding to their struggles

even five years later or 10 years later or

realizing that they have to process a big event.

They're going to struggle forever until they find somebody like you or

they come across some of these amazing, you know

doctors practitioners that like have switched to more. Let's

just say alternative holistic health and they're looking at the root cause of

your concern and it's usually something that happened the

long long time ago that's got nothing to do with the eczema that

you have all the headaches that you have or the literally the

heartache that you feel and your chest for 20 years.

You know, it's it's deep. It

makes a lot of sense to me. But how do you begin to start educating people

who come to you to recognize that that they

first of all that this thing happened to them the thing

that happens to them is causing a lot of their

Current stuff now in the day and educating

them about like what they can do about it because

they've got so much power to be able to to get

through that and do something about it.

Yeah, so one of the biggest things we do that's exactly

why we started our certification program because you

know and you mentioned therapy very therapy

can be wonderful. But if anything is going to

glue you to one specific spot that prevents your

healing it's unpacking your story without

a deliberate and intentional plan to move through

it. So we work with so many coaches healers

therapists. So this

way they understand the five stages from betrayal to

break through and when someone comes to them with an unhealed

betrayal, they can literally move them

through the five stages. So that's really

the education piece. And and that was

the most exciting of the three discoveries

and what we learned was while we can stay stuck for

years decades a lifetime and so many people

do if we're going to fully heal and by fully heal, I

mean those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome whichever ones

you happen to be you happen to have to that.

Lately rebuilt place of post

betrayal transformation we will go through five now

proven predictable stages. What's even more

exciting about that is we know what happens physically mentally

and emotionally at every stage and we

know what it takes to move from one stage to the next healing

is entirely predictable and happy to

share the stages. If you want to hear them. I think this is the

perfect time to slip into that. So yeah, can you just take us through like

those five stages like list them off and then just go into on

a little bit for me for sure.

Yeah, so they're all mapped out and Trust again.

It's what we teach within the p.

BT all of our coaches and practition

Are certified and here's a boil down version. So stage

one before it happens. If you can imagine four legs of

a table the four legs being physical mental emotional and spiritual

what I saw with everybody me too was a real heavy lean

on the physical and mental thinking and doing and kind

of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and

spiritual feeling and being if a table only

has two legs. It's easy for that table to top below over

and that's us stage two Shock Trauma

D-Day Discovery day the scariest of

all of the stages and this is the breakdown of

the body the mind and the world view you have just gotten

the news that has forever changed your life right here.

You've ignited this dress response you're headed for every

single stress related symptom illness condition disease.

They start right now. Your your mind

is is in complete chaos

and overwhelm. You can't understand what you

just learned makes no sense and your world view, which you

mentioned earlier. Your world view has just been

Word, you know it's it's everything you've held to be real and

true is no longer. The bottom is truly bottomed out

in you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is

terrifying but think about it if the bottom word about them

out and you what would you do you grab hold of whatever you could to stay

safe and stay alive that stage three.

Survival instincts emerge it's the most practical out

of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out

of the way. You know, how do I survive this experience? Who can

I trust? Here's the Trap though stage 3

by far this is the one that people

get stuck in and here's why once you've

figured out how to survive your experience because

it feels so much better than the

shock and Trauma of where you just came from. We think

it's good. We're like, okay, I got this and because

we don't know there's anywhere else to go.

We don't know there's a stage four or stage five transformation doesn't

even begin until stage four.

But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go we

plant roots here. We're not supposed to but we don't know that and

for things happen. The first thing is

you start getting all those small self benefits you

get to be right. We like being right we get

our story we get someone to blame we get

sympathy from everyone.

Tell our story to it on some level that feels good because that's kind

of all we have right now. So we plant deeper Roots again.

We're not supposed to but we don't know that now that we're here longer than we

should be the mind starts doing things like well, maybe

you're not that great. Maybe you deserved it. Maybe this maybe that so

we plant deeper roots.

Now because these are the thoughts we're thinking. Well, this is

the energy we're putting out like energy attracts like

energy. So now our attracting situations and circumstances

and we start attracting relationships to

confirm Yep. This is where we belong the

misery loves company crowd. This is when they find you

it gets worse, but I'll get you out here.

Because it feels so bad, but we don't know there's anywhere

else to go. We don't know about stage four right here

is where we resign ourselves. We're

like this stinks, but I have to get through

my day. So right here is where we start numbing avoiding

distracting. We start using food drugs alcohol

medicating, you know work TV

anything to numb and avoid and distract

ourselves from this painful place. So we do it for a day a week

a month. Now. It's a habit a year

10 years 20 years and I can see someone 20 years

after their portrayal and say that emotional eating.

You know that.

Not in front of the TV.

Betrayal and they would look at me like I'm crazy. He would

say it happened 20 years ago. All they did was

put themselves in stage 3 and stayed

there. Does that make sense?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's fascinating. Yeah, so

that was why I wrote from Hardin to heal

it is just for

Stage three. I'm like you've been.

Through it already.

Self to move through the stage is what in

the world. Are you doing spending all that time in stage three and people

the longer you you're in stage three

the more comfortable. It feels the more, you

know, and on some level the harder

it is to leave because it's what you know, and then when

you start having all your relationships and all your people and all your support

groups you sabotage yourself

very often because you don't want to outgrow your people.

So really common right here, that's why

in The Institute. We have a different type of support that lifts

and inspires. So you're celebrated as

you're you move through the stages. You're not

you. Don't not belong whole different whole

different thing. Anyway, if you are willing willingness is

the big word here to let go of the small self

benefits grief more in the last bunch of things you need

to do. You move to stage four stage four is

finding an adjusting to a new normal. Here's where

you acknowledge. I can't undo what happened, but

I control what I do with it right there in

that decision.

I start turning down the stress response. You're

not healing just yet. But at least you stop the massive

damage you'd been creating in stages to

in stage 3 stage four feels like

if you've ever moved if you've ever moved to

a new house office condo apartment, you know,

something like that all your stuff's not there. It's not quite cozy yet,

but you're like, okay. Okay. All right. We got this we can do

this. It feels like that. But what's so interesting

about stage four is this there's this

one spot.

Where it's so common we'll think about this if you

were to move you don't bring everything with you. You don't you don't

necessarily take the things that don't represent who you want

to be and there's this one spot. It's stage

three stage four where if your friends weren't

there for you you don't take them with you you've outgrown

them. If they don't rise. They don't

come along. So people say to me all the time. What the heck

I've had these friends 10 20 30 years. Is it me? Yes, it

is. You're undergoing a transformation and they don't rise. They don't

come.

When you've settled into stage four, you've

made it cozy you've made it mentally okay at home,

you move into the fifth most beautiful stage

and this is healing rebirth and a new

world view the body starts to heal self-love self-care

eating well exercise stuff like that. You

didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do the mind

is healing here's where you're making all new rules

all new boundaries based on the road. You just

traveled and you have a new world view based on

everything. You see so clearly now and the four legs

of the table.

In the beginning it was all about the physical and the mental by

this point. We're solidly grounded because we're focused

on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are

the five stages.

Amazing where can people read a

bit more about that. I mean, you mentioned your book and your

website just before I read it. I also want to know just because you

just finished that topic perfectly. I'm sure a lot of people maybe would

have focused on

Number one or number three or number four a little

bit more than the other one. So I won't be able to people where people to be

able to very quickly go over and learn a bit more about those five

stages because they're very very important to obviously work together. Where

were people was the best place for people to go and learn a

little bit more about that. Yeah. Everything can be found at the

PBT as in Post-it betrayal transformation the PBT

institute.com. Okay the trust

to get interest again, I map out the five stages

in from Hardin to healed that's

if you find you are stuck in stage 3,

but always best to read trust again first and then

from hard deal, but you'll find everything at the PPT institute.com.

Perfect. That's what people can go. That's

awesome. Can you tell us about the three discoveries that

you found in your yeah the first one

Trail is a very different type of

expert type of healing and it deserves its own type of name, which

is now called post betrayal transformation. So that betrayal

is a different type of trauma. That was the first discovery. The

second one was that we did discover. There

is a collection of symptoms physical mental and emotional

so common to betrayal it's known as post-betrail syndrome

and the third Discovery was that

you know, while we can stay stuck in most people

do if we're going to fully heal we're going to we're going

to move through five now proven predictable

stages which are called the five

stages from betrayal to break through. Those are the three discoveries.

Yeah, it's amazing that through that research you're

able to kind of create a strategy or

a platform for people to at least

begin their journey and have you know have have stages

and steps to get to where they want to be and have

somebody explain like maybe what they've been feeling and thinking

and you know behaving within for such

a long period of time into kind of like be understood like

just to be heard and be understood. It's probably like one of the biggest things

and also to actually connect that

Betrayal with a trauma with a very physical thing

that's happening within the body to you know, what's happening to somebody

for, you know, maybe years and years and years at a time.

So yeah, it sounds like it's invaluable piece of research

very very valuable books and the fact that

you've you've mapped it all out for a lot of people is very very important. I

think I think everybody knows somebody that suffered a

significant betrayal and

as you say maybe stuck in stage three and that seems

like the comfortable cozy place to be but like actually get true

to like not through the ceiling to become that different person.

It sounds like there's more work to be done.

Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's all we do within the PBT Institute

people come in at stage two or

stage three typically and that they're on

a very specific path with all of our

classes are labeled, you know, according to stages our coaches.

We have, you know, there's and practitioners there are some

they specialize in everything, you know in

divorce and Reconciliation in Addiction

in chronic pain and

in somatic body-based healing because all of

it needs to be worked through so really on someone's path, they'll

go to let's say stage two classes and

see certain coaches in a 10 certain master classes and watch certain

replays until they get to stage three and then the

same thing and the same thing in the same thing so that they

move through the stages. That's the whole idea.

How how do you think this is a complex question?

So do your best with this one, but

how do we how can somebody know if they

haven't really healed from from a betrayal did you say like,

it could have happened 30 40 years ago and people believe

and think that

they're done with that and that was over in such a long time ago.

And but there will certainly be

parts of their now the person

that they are now they're still still being

gripped upon and pulled back from that experience. How would

you begin to dissect like am I am I

still held back from that experience now?

If they're gripped by that experience, they have not healed. It's like the person who

says well, I'm great as long as I don't see them. No, that's not

healing betrayal really lends itself to

creating an entirely new identity. You keep

all the parts about you that you love and you let go and

you leap behind everything that no longer serves. It's

like this. It's like, you know Legos, right? So imagine

imagine a Lego structure in the corner of

a room and it's just there, you know, just sitting there and then the whole thing

is destroyed. Here's here's the opportunity

in betrayal. It says if the whole

thing came down and you're looking at each piece saying I don't

want to build it the same way. I don't want to use that piece. I don't want to do it like that.

I want to do it this way. I want to make it bigger and better and More

Beautiful whatever it is. That's what's happening. So if

someone's just you know back to life as

it was where they're not maxed out

in their health in their relationships in their work. They

haven't healed and and

you can go either way with this re

Is always a choice whether you rebuild yourself

and you move on.

Or if the situation lends itself if you're

willing if you want to you rebuild something from the ground

up new with the person who

hurt you and that's what I do with my husband not long ago is to totally

transform people. We married each other

again new Rings new vows new dress. Now four

kids is our bridal party and and people I

see people are so afraid of the death

and destruction of the old but that's the only way

you you birth the new

whether that's a new you or a new version

of you in a very new relationship, but

that's a stage five thing like the

PPT Institute. That was a stage five thing a new

marriage to my husband again, that was

a stage five thing. You don't have access to that in stage

certainly in stage two and not in stage three.

Is there like a period of time where somebody will go

from stage two to stage? Five? Is there it is there a typical timeline?

yeah, you know it's

It has so much to do with willingness. That's

one of the biggest factors when people work with me at the

highest level in our transform program. They are signing up

for a six-month commitment and they move

through all of it if the more willing they are in

that six-month period of time, but then

again some of them are in touch with me every single day.

I have them, you know, I'm working on things with

them physically mentally emotionally psychologically spiritually,

they're working they have access to everything within the

Institute. They're diving in deep. And those are it's not

for the meek. Those are for the people who say I I

I'm so done with this and they're so

angry that they let you know, 10 20 30 years go

by and there they've had it those are the best

ones because they're so ready.

Amazing. Well, it sounds like most people who sign

up for the course who contact

you by the book for example have some level

of willingness to begin with right? It

just depends in the severity of that I suppose and you know

working with you working. One of the your coaches is only

going to be able to draw that out of people as they're understanding is

their knowledge increases through the whole process. So just amazing

and you've already mentioned the website and

can you let us know like any like social media places that

people can can connect with you and check out your stuff sure my

name

Debbie silver

Simple it's right. I do daily videos

and I share them all around Facebook and Linkedin and

you can just find me by my name.

Wonderful. I'm sure that's all connected on your website as well.

So I'll make sure that people are able to access that to access all

of those social media things to get those daily updates. I

think that that consistent exposure is

obviously very very important along the journey.

And what they may be interested in as well. I did

two tedx talks the the second one. Do you

have post betrayal syndrome? So that's

something that usually hits pretty close

to home.

So if you're going through that that may be something of Interest.

Well, I'll also find the length of that direct talk

and make sure that that's accessible as well because I'm sure that would be a very

very good introduction to all of this work. So yeah,

thank you so much for coming on I mean betrayal is

such a such an interesting thing. I think there's so

many things like it that

You have your own individual experience within you have your own

individual kind of translation of it as well. But at the

end of the day like it's leading towards trauma and

it's leaning towards things that are going to hold people back from

being able to allow their body to heal them to

to make them feel amazing like then the body wants

you to do. So, thank you so much. I'm so glad that you're out there

doing this. I know I've got three people in my mind immediately that

I'm gonna send your website to because I've been working with them

for a while and I think it'd be a really really big piece

that no to add to the to the

like the nutritional work that I'm doing with them to add that referral

or be so powerful. So I'm glad that we had this

conversation and I'm so glad that you're out there doing your work.

Thank you so much.

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much again, and thank you

so much for listening everybody or watching. This is true Hope

cast the official podcast or true hope Canada. I'll leave

everything you need in the show notes to connect and you can

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